X2Ns

[David Schwab]

as long as it isn't a 100 page long thesis paper or something, any length is fine by me. I was just wondering how one pickups can sound like crap and another can sound amazing, even though they use seemingly the same parts to create that sound.

First thing to note is that some cheap Fender pickups have steel poles charged with ceramic magnets. That's not necessarily bad, but will sound different from alnico poles.

Then some Fender pickups have plastic bobbins, and the wire doesn't touch the poles/magnets. Once again, not a bad thing, but different.

Then there are factors about the coil dimensions... how tall and wide, etc. The type of bobbin will effect that.

Then there is the quality and type of magnets used, and if steel poles are utilized, what type of steel is being used.

Lastly is the magnet wire's insulation thickness, and the winding pattern. Often people don't care for the tone of very neatly wound coils.

The number of turns will also vary with the style of pickup, and that will made big differences in the tone.

So as LtKojak alluded to, there are many factors that made up the tone of a pickups, and that in itself is quite subjective. What is a good sounding pickup, and what is a bad sounding pickup? It's kind of like saying what's the best color? But I will agree that some cheap pickups are just dull and lifeless.

[kugelspot]

First thing to note is that some cheap Fender pickups have steel poles charged with ceramic magnets. That's not necessarily bad, but will sound different from alnico poles.

Then some Fender pickups have plastic bobbins, and the wire doesn't touch the poles/magnets. Once again, not a bad thing, but different.

Then there are factors about the coil dimensions... how tall and wide, etc. The type of bobbin will effect that.

Then there is the quality and type of magnets used, and if steel poles are utilized, what type of steel is being used.

Lastly is the magnet wire's insulation thickness, and the winding pattern. Often people don't care for the tone of very neatly wound coils.

The number of turns will also vary with the style of pickup, and that will made big differences in the tone.

So as LtKojak alluded to, there are many factors that made up the tone of a pickups, and that in itself is quite subjective. What is a good sounding pickup, and what is a bad sounding pickup? It's kind of like saying what's the best color? But I will agree that some cheap pickups are just dull and lifeless.

Thanks, I guess that answers most of my questions. I kind of knew most of the factors that determine the tone, I just wanted to know what separates cheap pickups from nice ones. Also, a few clarifying questions:

1. What should the bobbins be made out of?
2. How would I determine the quality of a magnet?

[David Schwab]

Bobbins can be made from any non conductive material. My point about the plastic bobbins was only in comparison to the traditional Fender bobbins. Plastic bobbins are fine, but they changed a number of aspects of the pickup when they used plastic bobbins. But some of those Fender pickups sound quite good, just a little different from the older style.

My point about magnets is some cheap pickups have weak ceramic magnets. That can be used as a design element, but with most of those cheap pickups (the ones that have a single ceramic magnet glued to the bottom), a better magnet can brighten up the tone.

[ShannonH]

more cowbell, literalyl

Is there anything special about the actual construction of Dimarzio X2Ns that makes the frequency responce so balanced? I was wondering because I want to make something kind of like that except with neodymium magnets and even more winding (ie, the highest output pickup ever).

I'm in on this a bit late, but DiMarzio does do some funky stuff by increasing the amount of metal in a PU by adding metal slugs, bars, etc. (see the mini hum or the super d). This in turn increases bass response (according to Bill Lawrence, I believe(electronics for musicians).) That could be a bit too much in the X2N. You'll note the hybridization of this style in the pickups Petrucci uses. It all has to do with ease of duplication and looks too.

Peace

[apguitars]

X2n have 7000 turns of 43 AWG 1 mag. ceramic 8 and no potting. I rewind one. SD have all the same, but 6200 turns 43 awg

[fieldwrangler]

My point about magnets is some cheap pickups have weak ceramic magnets. That can be used as a design element, but with most of those cheap pickups (the ones that have a single ceramic magnet glued to the bottom), a better magnet can brighten up the tone.

David -

If I'm thinking of the same Strat-style steel-poled units that I used to buy by the dozen from ESP in the 80's I'm quite fond of their response & character. In fact, I just loaded two of them (after potting & shielding) into one of my Strats with which I intend to gig this weekend.

I guess I always thought the weak ceramic magnets were part of the reason the string pull seemed low, and therefore allowed me to crank 'em close to the strings. I haven't tried swapping out the magnets; I don't have any other ceramics polarized across the short dimension.

[David Schwab]

David -

If I'm thinking of the same Strat-style steel-poled units that I used to buy by the dozen from ESP in the 80's I'm quite fond of their response & character. In fact, I just loaded two of them (after potting & shielding) into one of my Strats with which I intend to gig with this weekend.

I guess I always thought the weak ceramic magnets were part of the reason the string pull seemed low, and therefore allowed me to crank 'em close to the strings. I haven't tried swapping out the magnets; I don't have any other ceramics polarized across the short dimension.

I was talking about some cheap Fender units I have. The magnet measured 345 G. I have another cheap Strat pickups, and the alnico rods measure about 720G.

Others had longer poles and two ceramic bars facing the poles. Those sound better. Even with a strong ceramic magnet you wont get the pull like you would with 6 alnico rods!

[Mike Sulzer]

I guess I always thought the weak ceramic magnets were part of the reason the string pull seemed low, and therefore allowed me to crank 'em close to the strings.

Exactly. That ceramic magnet is not particularly conductive or permeable. On the backs of the pole pieces it has no real effect on the sound other than providing the source for the magnetic field that magnetizes the strings. So why not carry it a step farther and not use ceramic magnets that are hard to get magnetized in the correct direction, but rather use little button neos. They are cheap and come in a range of sizes. Since you like the pole pieces close, you will probably want to keep the magnets on the back, but you might want to try really small thin ones on the front. (I use 1/8 inch dia., 1/32 thick.) For use on the back, you can buy thin ones about the diameter of the pole piece, and then stack until you get the strength you like. (For thin disks, the strength increases about linearly with the thickness of the stack. Once the thickness gets to be something like the diameter, the strength no longer increases as rapidly with more magnets.)

[Mike Sulzer]

Even with a strong ceramic magnet you wont get the pull like you would with 6 alnico rods!

Another reason for using neo.

[fieldwrangler]

... you might want to try really small thin ones on the front. (I use 1/8 inch dia., 1/32 thick.)

In fact, those sound like the very things I use (on the front) for my own current pickups.

[Mike Sulzer]

In fact, those sound like the very things I use (on the front) for my own current pickups.

That is interesting; are you using steel cores in these pickups or something more exotic?

[fieldwrangler]

That is interesting; are you using steel cores in these pickups or something more exotic?

Steel-cored sidewinders.

[Mike Sulzer]

Steel-cored sidewinders.

These are sidewinders you make? The only sidewinder I am familiar with is that big old bass pickup. (http://music-electronics-forum.com/t20079/, picture by Chris Turner, functional explanation by David S.)

The magnetic field from the magnet on the outside of each coil passes through the steel core of the coil and must return to the magnet. The two paths for doing so are up through the screws and down the other way. Thus, the string is magnetized with an approximately vertical field over the screw. The same magnetic poles face in so that the fields add instead of subtracting.

The time varying field from the vibrating string passes down through the screw and the steel guides it through each coil and back to the string. The coils are connected so that the two signal polarities add with the signal fields pointing in opposite directions through the two coils, i.e., both out.

Thus, the output from a hum field directed through the two coils cancels because it points in the same direction through both coils. If this works as a humbucker, this must be the major direction of hum sensitivity, because a hum field directed along the axes of the screws does not cancel, just as the signal does not. So these are not perfect humbuckers, but presumably good enough.

Using neos on the tops of the pole pieces is a good idea because it eliminates the magnets on the outside ends of the coils and makes the pickup narrower.

The only general advantage of a sidewinder that I can think of is that it samples the strings like a single coil rather than like a normal humbucker.

[fieldwrangler]

These are sidewinders you make? The only sidewinder I am familiar with is that big old bass pickup. (http://music-electronics-forum.com/t20079/, picture by Chris Turner, functional explanation by David S.)

The magnetic field from the magnet on the outside of each coil passes through the steel core of the coil and must return to the magnet. The two paths for doing so are up through the screws and down the other way. Thus, the string is magnetized with an approximately vertical field over the screw. The same magnetic poles face in so that the fields add instead of subtracting.

The time varying field from the vibrating string passes down through the screw and the steel guides it through each coil and back to the string. The coils are connected so that the two signal polarities add with the signal fields pointing in opposite directions through the two coils, i.e., both out.

Thus, the output from a hum field directed through the two coils cancels because it points in the same direction through both coils. If this works as a humbucker, this must be the major direction of hum sensitivity, because a hum field directed along the axes of the screws does not cancel, just as the signal does not. So these are not perfect humbuckers, but presumably good enough.

Using neos on the tops of the pole pieces is a good idea because it eliminates the magnets on the outside ends of the coils and makes the pickup narrower.

The only general advantage of a sidewinder that I can think of is that it samples the strings like a single coil rather than like a normal humbucker.

Mike -

Thanks for this summation of that version of a sidewinder.

The single-coil-like coherence of the transient & dynamic responses is one of the main reasons I'm using this format.

Regarding the hum canceling efficiency (relative to other designs) I'll do some tests regarding coil orientation relative to hum source point, direction & polarization and see what comes through.

[David Schwab]

The only sidewinder I am familiar with is that big old bass pickup.

They aren't common, but there have been a number of them over the years.

besides the Gibson mudbucker, there was the Bill Lawrence L-250 Strat sized pickup. Bill also designed one for the reissue Thunderbird bass in '76. He got a patent on that one (3902394). Two of the Lane Poor bass pickups that Belwar dissected were sidewinders. Q-Tuners are sidewinders. Recently Lindy Fralin made a sidewinder P-90. I play with a guy who put two in his PRS and they sound very nice.

Lastly, I make a sidewinder bass pickup. I'm using ceramic magnets though. I'm going to try neos again, but they were kind of harsh sounding on my first attempts.

The only general advantage of a sidewinder that I can think of is that it samples the strings like a single coil rather than like a normal humbucker.

That's it. It sounds very bright like a single coil. Sidewinders

I wind the the two coils in opposite directions, and then wire them up in phase. I wind them that way just because of the way they go on my winder. I do notice they are a bit more sensitive to electrical field noise than regular humbuckers.