PE vs. SPN... do I care?

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Hey all, thanks for all the great info.

I combed the past threads hoping to find some information about the differences between plain enamel and single poly nylon. Basically, I've used PE and heavy formvar and I'm wondering if it is worth my time/effort to try SPN. To my ears there is a strong difference between PE and HF... the PE is cleaner sounding, tighter, and the highs are very defined. The HF is maybe a bit softer, the highs and lows sound less separated than with the PE, the low end is much looser, it reminds me of well broken-in speaker. You know what I mean, when you find an old tube 1x12 that has an original speaker that just rocks out, even if it is on its last leg. This could just be because I was experimenting with different winding styles at the same time, but that is the general thing I'm hearing so far.

What might I expect from SPN? Is it worth it, or should I just invest in restocking my PE?

Thanks,

[SkinnyWire]

Well, let the fun begin.

I'm not going to comment on what you may or may not hear in terms of the difference in tone. I will say ... yes. It's more than worth your time/effort to experiment with SPN.

[salvarsan]

What might I expect from SPN? Is it worth it, or should I just invest in restocking my PE?

Everyone who has worked with different insulations says that the differences are audible and small. *You work with what you can get.


When it matters, some of the members measure wire diameter and resistance for each spool they use.


In a good (but not perfect) world, you'd like #42 AWG wire (single build) to be .0028" diameter +/- .0001", and 10 feet of it should measure near 17 ohms DC resistance.


In practice, you'd like all your wire to be equally out of tolerance.
-drh

[belwar]

I've got a 10 pound spool of SPN in 42 awg, from Shelhav. If you are interested I'll sell it for 2/3 of what I paid for it... $100 via paypal.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Thanks for the offer on the spool - but I think that's way more wire than I need when I'm not sure if I'll like it or not.

Feel free to dispute what I'm hearing. I think I have pretty good ears for timbre, but I may be hearing something from another element of the pickup rather than the windings, so if you disagree I see nothing wrong with that.

[David King]

Duckspaz on Ebay is a good place to go to try the various gauges of spn. You can always unload it if you don't like it. I've decided to work with it because it's reliably available and cheap and solderable.

[Possum]

...

I think you'd probably find it useful for the "dude" players. Rock....

[David Schwab]

I also use SPN.

What might I expect from SPN?

You hear it all the time from large pickup makers.

[Possum]

...

DUDE!

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

dude, I have no idea what you're talking about.......

[SkinnyWire]

dude, I have no idea what you're talking about.......

Some great pickups have been, and continue to be produced with SPN. The solderable type is also much easier to work with than PE or Formvar. Some cork-sniffers continue to peddle the PE only myth. YMMV. Check it out for yourself. Even your opinions on what PE or Formvar "does" will likely change over time with different winds.

[kevinT]

The solderable type is also much easier to work with than PE or Formvar.

I was just thinking that today while working... how much more enjoyable SPN is to work with in terms of saving time and effort. Eliminates that one extra step of removing insulation on PE before soldering...

[David Schwab]

dude, I have no idea what you're talking about.......

Apparently not. What do you think companies like Duncan and DiMarzio (as well as Gibson and Fender) use? It ain't PE! Gibson uses a dark colored SPN. The rest is all marketing.

To give you an idea how you can't believe anything Gibson writes, look up the awful Zoot Suit SG. They say:

Frets
The traditional “medium/jumbo” fret wire is a combination nickel and silver alloy (approximately 80 percent nickel and 20 percent silver) specifically designed for long life and superior wear.

Ummm nope! Nickel Silver doesn't contain any silver! It's 60% copper, 20% Nickel, 20% zinc!

Or how about the tone pot?

The Zoot Suit features one master tone control with a potentiometer made by CTS. The pot (short for potentiometer) has an ohm reading of 500k, which is the highest value for a panel pot, and allows for a very smooth transition from highs and lows.

Glad they didn't use a 1M tone pot!

How about the pickup wire?

Wire Material
The wire used in these pickups is made from polysol copper, which is insulated to reduce capacitance leakage. It is the same wire used in pickup manufacturing in the 1950s and 1960s.

Ummmm....... OK! You sure don't want your capacitance to leak out all over that awful plywood clown suit body!

Polysol-N is Polyurethane/Nylon, aka SPN (Solderable Poly/Nylon). Sure, Gibson used that in the 50's.

PE is too expensive for a large company to use, but it's only expensive because it's only made by one company and not in large quantities. There's not much demand for it, so it's expensive.

Major pickup makers use SPN.

[David Schwab]

Even your opinions on what PE or Formvar "does" will likely change over time with different winds.

Exactly. When people say Formvar, they often mean Heavy Formvar. Try heavy build SPN, and it will have the same tonal characteristics as HF, which is because of the heavy insulation, more than the type of insulation.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Yikes. Someone needs to look up german silver on wikipedia and send the link to Gibson. It is depressing, but I can't say I'm all that surprised.

I'm also seeing that the fingerboard is "the highest grade ebony on the planet".... which apparently uses a grading system they just made up. It also has a "classical style peghead"..... I think I'll have to send a picture to the guy who made my Spanish classical and tell him he did it wrong.

And of course, using the word "radiuses" sends a chill up my spine.... is radii that hard of a word to learn?

What I wasn't following was the "dude" exchange, I wasn't quite sure what you were referring to. I guess this infamous product description?

They're using insulated magnet wire? Gee, maybe that's why none of my pickups have been working yet, I've been using enamel-less wire.

I think that goes right up on the list with the plek for stupid things to say about guitar manufacturing.

Thanks for the info, I think I had PE and SPN mixed up in my head in terms of availability and price.

It seems like a good rule of thumb is the thickness is what matters and not the material? Having done relatively little experimenting, I wasn't sure if the actual synthetic might make an impact winding around corners, etc. That certainly makes sense, I have to admit I heard less of a difference between even PE and HF than I was led to believe there was.