Any interest in a pickup Wiki?

[ShannonH]

Honestly, guitar pickups are such bone-headedly simple antiquated technology that they are no more than a commodity serviced by a cottage industry.

An yet there is so much voodoo surrounding the topic, as is evidenced by all the marketing hype. Like the guy said, it's not rocket surgery.

[automan]

i dont know if it applies to this topic, but does anyone know of a free use collection of wiring diagram component pics? I want to start putting together a bunch of wiring diagrams to add to my schatten book and am looking for the drawings of pots, switches, etc. I can draw lines and put the components where I want them, but I suck at digital drawing. I had a link for a page with all of them on the same page, but I cant seen to find the link. I dont want schematic images, I have lots of those. Just the ones to make wiring diagrams.

Thanks!

[Bruce Johnson]

Shannon;

I'm not trying to completely discourage the idea, but you need to understand where the line is.

If you publish a database that has, for example, these things:

External dimensions
Wiring hookup
DC resistance
Frequency curve
Other externally measured performance numbers

That would be fine, and manufacturers may even help you by submitting data. That database would help customers evaluate and decide on products.

But as soon as you start listing things like number of turns, wire type & size, magnet type & size, internal configuration, etc., that crosses over the legal line. It becomes a cookbook, which helps and encourages people to make their own copies.

And, yes, you can be sued for publishing details about how a product is made, even if it isn't patented or trademarked. That's covered under Proprietary Information law. Even if you buy a pickup and cut it apart to discover how it's made, you don't have the right to publish that information without the manufacturers' permission.

Be careful! There's a lot of money in the musical instrument business, but most of the manufacturers right now are fighting for their survival. They don't really care about you building a couple of copies. But if you publish what they consider to be secrets of their products, which real competitors (such as many smaller manufacturers overseas) could use, they will sue you. And your side would be hard to defend.

[Sock Puppet]

i dont know if it applies to this topic, but does anyone know of a free use collection of wiring diagram component pics? I want to start putting together a bunch of wiring diagrams to add to my schatten book and am looking for the drawings of pots, switches, etc. I can draw lines and put the components where I want them, but I suck at digital drawing. I had a link for a page with all of them on the same page, but I cant seen to find the link. I dont want schematic images, I have lots of those. Just the ones to make wiring diagrams.

Thanks!

Might the thing you're looking for be here?

UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com - The Ultimate Guitar Wiring thread

You can chop up the pictures on there, or were you after something different?

S.

[David King]

I think the main reason for a reference site is for rewind jobs. Someone brings you a pickup to rewind that's missing the wire or the magnets or whatnot, you can look it up in 2 minutes and have a reasonable chance of success. Does that interfere with someone's business model? Probably but I still think it's a reasonable use.

Copies DO have their place. You can learn a lot by copying a piece of art or a sculpture. If I had a certain guitar that came with cheap, knockoff pickups you can be sure I'd want to replace them with something "vintage" for starters.

The funny thing about Asian factories is that they hate working from drawings. They are so used to copying foreign guitars that they demand a prototype that they can disassemble and make their own tooling from. They probably wouldn't bother looking specs up on a wiki.

[salvarsan]

I'm not trying to completely discourage the idea, but you need to understand where the line is.
...
And, yes, you can be sued for publishing details about how a product is made, even if it isn't patented or trademarked. That's covered under Proprietary Information law. Even if you buy a pickup and cut it apart to discover how it's made, you don't have the right to publish that information without the manufacturers' permission. ....

Proprietary Law deals with product uniqueness and sensitivity of information
with the assumption that a manufacturor protect that information and render it
difficult to obtain.

In the guitar pickup domain, this means a permanently potted device using
epoxide resins or similar. EMG and Bartolini protect their uniqueness. Wax
potted and unpotted pickups are effectively unprotected.

Again, this stuff is godawful antique -- too much of it is finished science
and finished manufacture with nothing left to the imagination except for specific
arrangements of a-la-carte features.

The distinctions between things "Necessary and Sufficient" should be clear here:

• pickup specifications are not construction knowledge;
• construction knowledge is not a finished pickup ;
• a finished pickup is not a builder's workshop;
  
• a workshop is not a business;
• a business is not a customer base.

To say that publishing pickup specs is a threat to the pickup business is like
saying that all Women are proven to be pimps because they know what a penis is.

The stompbox forum went through this and settled it over ten years ago.
They became a forward-looking bunch of people interested in improving old
designs when they weren't busy making new ones.

With their information, you can build an outstanding sounding Arbiter Fuzz Face
compared to the standards of the original...except that you are more likely to find
the modern designs more interesting and versatile.

In pickup-building land, people can still get shouted down or ignored for
suggesting something that deviates from the reliquarianism of pre-60's
pickup design.

By all means, let us continue to keep everything shrouded in mystery
so as to ensure arrested technological development.

-drh

[ShannonH]

hallelujah!

The stompbox forum went through this and settled it over ten years ago.
They became a forward-looking bunch of people interested in improving old
designs when they weren't busy making new ones(italics added).-drh

This is exactly my goal.

The types of data I listed in my proposed info is either
a.) Easily obtained from the manufacturer (would they list it if they thought you could knock of their pickups that easily?)

or
b.) Observable without destructive dis-assembly.

I just want to see more and more innovation. I think some guys here are doing it, using neo magnets and the like, but I really believe that sometimes you need to have a basis of information to start with. That, plus I'm one of those kids that grew up with the internet and believes that if the information is out there, it can (and should) be collated and disseminated. I'm all for the school of hard knocks, and having to rummage for your data, but in reality, few people have the patience and perseverance to stand and wind pickups by hand. Especially when making prototype after prototype.

Intellectual property is a dicey area of law right now, but if I recall correctly from the college course I took on it, unless you've patented or trademarked your idea, you have to treat it as a trade secret, and cover it up. Like EMG does. There is a possibility for legal action here, but maybe not. My bigger concern is that I don't want to piss off a bunch of guys that I have come to consider as good acquaintances that help each other out with a very niche process.

Peace,
Shannon

[Old Tele man]

I don't want to piss off a bunch of guys that I have come to consider as good acquaintances that help each other out with a very niche process.

...maybe you're 'starting' at the wrong end of this endeavor? Sounds like maybe you should be beginning by contacting those "good acquaintances" and asking them what sort of information they would be willing to share?

...and, FWIW, one could always clearly add the wording "...under Patent XXX,XXX..." as appropriate and necessary.

[Sock Puppet]

The stompbox forum went through this and settled it over ten years ago.
They became a forward-looking bunch of people interested in improving old
designs when they weren't busy making new ones.

Didn't that also spawn this:

freestompboxes.org • Index page

I'm not trolling, I just thought it pertinent.

Rob.

[ShannonH]

I'm not trolling, I just thought it pertinent.
Rob.

A black list seems fair. Do you want to implement that here? Now it might seem less fair. Especially when someone has a Gibson MonkeyBucker that you need to repair and you have no idea what to do. Of course Gibson would rather you bought a new MonkeyBucker. I'm just postulating a theory, not trolling.

...maybe you're 'starting' at the wrong end of this endeavor? Sounds like maybe you should be beginning by contacting those "good acquaintances" and asking them what sort of information they would be willing to share?

That is more or less what I was trying to do. I just always figured that if you put it on a website, then you were willing to share at least that much. I have complete respect and understanding for those folks who don't put certain info on their sites. The thing that has happened is that the average player is becoming more savvy. Some people hate ceramic magnets in their pickups, so that item is usually disclosed. I personally hate getting returns = no sale and usually a lost customer = so I disclose magnet type and resistance.

I want to be clear, I have never thought it a good idea to put number of winds, bobbin heights and measurements, steel used in pole pieces, keeper bars and other "hidden" info that makes your thing "yours" and my thing "mine". I would track that info (about my stuff) for myself, but never in a public forum. It might not even be good to put wire type and size (pe 42, Poly 43, etc.).

I truly appreciate all the responses here. My goal was indeed to find out how folks really feel about this idea. A project like this represents a lot of work for me, and I don't want anyone to feel that I want to take away or invalidate the work and research they have done. It's hard to find a niche within a niche, let alone make it pay. But then again, sometimes you love doing something so much you'd do it for free.

Peace,
Shannon

[David King]

Shannon,
Are you saying you would start over somewhere else on the web for the pickup wiki? I don't see the logic...

[ShannonH]

glutton for punishment

Shannon,
Are you saying you would start over somewhere else on the web for the pickup wiki? I don't see the logic...

It's about the backbone. I would be building a significant MySQL database that would be search-able and sortable. I like to look at groups of data, say all humbuckers over 14k with A5 magnets. Most wiki's have to be modified to do that. I did this in a past life, so it's enjoyable too.

Shannon

[Sock Puppet]

A black list seems fair. Do you want to implement that here? Now it might seem less fair. Especially when someone has a Gibson MonkeyBucker that you need to repair and ayou have no idea what to do. Of course Gibson would rather you bought a new MonkeyBucker. I'm just postulating a theory, not trolling.

Hi Shannon,

I see where you're coming from but I can see it from a different viewpoint. I'm not being acerbic but if you create the SQL and you like it, see if you really want to post the full database here. The moneybucker II is a nice pickup and if you asked nicely for info to repair one, I'm almost 100% sure that a forum member or members would pipe up and help. Hell, if I had the time I'd take one to bits for you!

Someone may have to wait a couple of days - so what! There's a wealth of (old buggers) knowledge in the 6k+ members on here interested in the things you mention.

I love the information I can glean from the internet - it's a massive library to me, but to hold all that work (Your MySQL say) in one place... is simply a bad idea.

A pickup wiki IMHO should be basic... very basic, and not cover modern designs except patents.

Just my twopennyworth.

Take care,

Rob.

P.S. My Mother's maiden name was Gibson

[David King]

I thought the main benefit of using a wiki was than anyone, anywhere could add data to it at any time. We probably don't need to log every 1970's strat pickup's dimensions that anyone has ever come across. However if someone in Finland has a funky old Russian pickup then never saw the light of day west of the iron curtain, it'd be nice if they could log it in in all it's glory and not have to bother you with the details and wait for you to enter the data.

Well I'm not really sure what you're proposing yet so it might not be an issue but I do think the pickupwiki.info domain could probably handle the front end of your proposed database.