Hot vs Vintage

[ShannonH]

This is just a discussion topic, and hopefully not a fire starter. I've read several guy's ad copy and they are pushing "go for tone, get your distortion from pedals." Most guys that are buying my pickups don't use pedals, they use the amp overdrive/distortion for what they want. That is mostly what I do, and I have found it possible to create "hot" pickups that sound great clean, and will knock an amp into overdriven goodness. Only in very extreme situations is all nuance and tone taken out of the pickup.

What's your experience say?

Peace
Shannon

[David Schwab]

A clean pickup sounds very different distorted from a hot pickup. Clean pickups have too much top end, and get a "blatty" tone.

You can do it if you roll off some top end, but they still feel different. I prefer pickups that aren't too dark, but I've had a few very overwound pickups that were very nice when distorted, but sounded like poop clean.

[ShannonH]

blatty...

I like that description, kind of like a horn poorly played. I wind a rock pickup with a cover that can sound a bit nasally clean, but it's not horrid, and can be good in the right guitar. I guess there might be a disconnect in what "hot" is too. I wind my hottest to 14.5k with 43, I have a 14.1 k in a bridge on a strat that sounds vintage, but when you crank the gain it gets beautiful.

I think that even rolling off the highs on a vintage guitar still doesn't sound like a hotter pickup fully opened up. No matter what you do, the cap is going to eat some of what you want. I know it's just an opinion thing, but one of those things I like to work out with other folks' input. Peace.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I think the problem here is that the "hot vs. vintage" is a bit of a false dichotomy. Perhaps it is more realistic for marketing - most major brands tend to set up their product lines along that spectrum. I think it has more to do with the common bag o'tricks that came up in the 70s and 80s for making hotter pickups. People here know the sorts of things I'm talking about and it is available in any rant about pickup history, but this basic set of methods created one sort of pickup. I don't think "hot" always needs to have that sound, nor does "vintage" have to have difficulty with distortion. It is just a matter of methodology, and I see more progress on this forum with getting hotter pickups that aren't just overwound hindenburgs of tone so I can see the average consumer's frustration.

I think there is a bigger issue with amps, and I personally tend not to worry about distortion readiness of pickups. Modern amps have clean channels that are too clean - hot pickups can be great in a 50s or 60s amp to get a wonderful raunchy tone, but when the clean channel is too clean, it is unpleasant. I think this is how they were originally designed. Similarly, I think most distortion channels (or pedals) are far too saturated, and with a moderate amount of distortion a "vintage" pickup still sounds great. Think tube screamers un-modded, or marshall silver jubilee amps. Then again, I don't play metal, thrash, etc. so if it doesn't sound good for old blues it is too much for me.

Shannon, sounds like you're maybe an old amp sorta person? I had an old Ampeg Reverborocket that sounded amazing... I just hated that I had to unplug a humbucker guitar and plug something else in so I could get a clean tone... if I was your customer and you promised me a great distortion sounding pickup, I'd want to know how I might keep a nice clean tone on the same guitar. Are you a "roll off the volume" sorta player? I of course also have an old twin, but depending on the tubes and how you define "distortion", you have to get close to EMGs to make the front end break up significantly.

One of these days I'll get one of those kit 5E3 things, but as for now...... *sigh* Cathode bias is next to godliness.

[ShannonH]

more an amp thing...

Shannon, sounds like you're maybe an old amp sorta person? I had an old Ampeg Reverborocket that sounded amazing... I just hated that I had to unplug a humbucker guitar and plug something else in so I could get a clean tone...
One of these days I'll get one of those kit 5E3 things, but as for now...... *sigh* Cathode bias is next to godliness.

I just think, If you spent 500 - 2000 on an amp, why are you goosing the distortion with a pedal? I mean a triple rectifier will rip your head off and leave you asking for more. On the other hand, a green Russian Muff is it's own tone, that you'll only achieve by slicing your speakers with a razor blade. I love the tone of a tube amp cranked and breathy, which I have yet to hear through a pedal. I do like old amps, and simple amps, but they don't all sound great for myriad reasons.

I do think you can get pretty close to hot/vintage clean/dirty nirvana with a handwound pickup. I think the scatterwinding helps, although scatterwound humbuckers have their detractors. I think the same can happen with a properly wound single, although most people aren't pushing their singles into metal pedals (although a decimator will help you do that, another pedal.)

Peace

[Musiclogic]

Just an opinion, The guitar pickups that really make me agree with Shannons OP are the Kent Armstrong Super distortion, and Ultra Distortion, both of these pickups sound great distorted, as well as clean, but this is only to my ears, and my guitarists. My belief is that there can be the best of both worlds in pickups if someone really has their alchemy correct.

[Billy Bones]

I am surprised to hear folks talking about vintage pickups not sounding great distorted. Maybe we're thinking of different levels of distortion. I've been spending some time A-B'ing pups through various amps. I have only ever really played punk rock music. I have played through lots of vintage 50 and 100 watt amps and I drive the tubes very hard. Vintage type humbuckers sound perfect to me in those kind of applications. I'm looking for the same type of tones as a mean screaming blues player looks for. When you talk heavy distortion do you mean heavy metal style stuff? I have no idea about that kind of distortion. I do mostly think that it is better for a pickup to have power and clarity. Amps and pedals can color it any way you want from clean, but they have a hard time making a muddy pickup clear.

Are you saying that some pickups sound better to you when distorted heavily than pickups that started out with clarity? That's an interesting concept. Today were talking about tone descriptors and how difficultthe conversation is. If I'm hearing you right, what is it about the distorted tone that you are hearing that you like?