Optimum/Max RPM for winding pickups?

[David Schwab]

Right on Peskywinnets, thats about what I did. With a PC you have unlimited lines of codes and can mimic handwinding by throwing enough lines together once you figure out how to make the softare move the traverse like you want it.

There's enough parameters in the controller board to do just that. Your system only controls the traverse. ElePro's also controls winding speed and tension, etc.

I have no desire to get a PC etc. to use for winding if I don't need to. I also have no room for it. I also plan on making a second winder at some point. It's nice to have them self contained.

What I would like ultimately, maybe you have some ideas here, is an alternate way to control the stepper with a joystick so you could use the same board and computer but move a joystick back and forth to do actual handguided winding. I'm sure it can be done but never really looked into it yet.

Isn't that over complicating things? Why not just hand wind then?

Surely if you are using a PC you can factor in a USB joystick controller to change some parameters in real time? Or does it only run on written code?

[peskywinnets]

Right on Peskywinnets, thats about what I did. With a PC you have unlimited lines of codes and can mimic handwinding by throwing enough lines together once you figure out how to make the softare move the traverse like you want it. What I would like ultimately, maybe you have some ideas here, is an alternate way to control the stepper with a joystick so you could use the same board and computer but move a joystick back and forth to do actual handguided winding. I'm sure it can be done but never really looked into it yet.

I only use the shuttle for moving the steppers around 'pre' wind - once the wind is off, it's fully automated (indeed I'm not sure that it's even possible to interact with the steppers whilst a CNC program is running the G-Code - i doubt it)

David S.... As I said, on the thread you originally linked to (advertising the PIC/PCB), I've not asked anything about what it does (on account I don't want to buy one). I do recall chipping in on the much longer associated CNC thread that ran prior (but in truth I hadn't read that particular thread's previous multitude of pages!)...but, it still stands that I wasn't sure what his final PCB/PIC board functionality was & whether for example the stepper driver trannies were integrated (next time I'll get a solicitors letter prior to making a similar throwaway quip though)

Now you've clarified, I see that it essentially replaces the aformentioned Excel Spreadsheet (which can easily produce G-Code after inputting all the wind parameters). So what you see as 'brains', I see as a spreadsheet that can be knocked up relatively quickly

I guess, the upside is that going the Elepro way, it removes one step in the overall process (loading G-Code into a CNC program like Mach3)....also, being standalone you're not tied to a PC. The downside is that you're somewhat tied to the writer's feature set.

Anyway, horses for courses & I'm straying off...I'm certainly not dissing what Elepro has done - he obviously produces good stuff & there'll always be those that want others to do the leg work (no matter how simple the leg work is!)...so fair play to him - I hope his PCB/PICs sell well - it's surely a lot of work to get to getting a product to the stage he has.

[-Elepro-]

Right on Peskywinnets, thats about what I did. With a PC you have unlimited lines of codes and can mimic handwinding by throwing enough lines together once you figure out how to make the softare move the traverse like you want it. What I would like ultimately, maybe you have some ideas here, is an alternate way to control the stepper with a joystick so you could use the same board and computer but move a joystick back and forth to do actual handguided winding. I'm sure it can be done but never really looked into it yet.

(not for polemic... it's just to understand....)

are all these "unlimited lines of codes and can mimic handwinding" perfectly in syncro with main motor? or do you adjust speed with potentiometer? in this case you never have perfectly same speed then all this just produce a simply Random mode.... (with my controller you can have this just selecting Random mode ....)

in alternate pitch mode my controller can alternate 2 to "only" 10 different pitch in the pickup layers.... but it do this really in syncro with main motor (in acceleration and deceleration phases too)

instead, if you are perfectly in syncro too, do you consider useful to have "unlimited lines of codes" in pickup making? i think that 10 (or less) different pitch are enough to create overlapped layers scatterwound-like but that you can repeat perfectly same all the times....


last but not least.... if you change height of bobbin you have to re-write all the "unlimited lines"???

peskywinnets, yes my controller just replace your spreadsheet..... and mach3, windows,pc,monitor,keyboard and mouse.... with some watt less...

bye

[peskywinnets]

peskywinnets, yes my controller just replace your spreadsheet..... and mach3, windows,pc,monitor,keyboard and mouse.... and some watt less...

bye

Yep, I covered that off...

I guess, the upside is that going the Elepro way, it removes one step in the overall process (loading G-Code into a CNC program like Mach3)....also, being standalone you're not tied to a PC.

Most folks have access to a PC nowadays, the question is do you want to use it in conjuction with a winder setup or go standalone. As it goes I use a PC as an integral & essential part of my workshop (USB scope, function generator, internet radio, IC datasheet locator...a bit of porn, oops I mean 'research', CNC winder host, blah, etc), but yes for those still running quaint "ye olde worlde" workshops a standalone CNC winder setup is perfect!

[David Schwab]

I only use the shuttle for moving the steppers around 'pre' wind - once the wind is off, it's fully automated (indeed I'm not sure that it's even possible to interact with the steppers whilst a CNC program is running the G-Code - i doubt it)

David S.... As I said, on the thread you originally linked to (advertising the PIC/PCB), I've not asked anything about what it does (on account I don't want to buy one). I do recall chipping in on the much longer associated CNC thread that ran prior (but in truth I hadn't read that particular thread's previous multitude of pages!)...but, it still stands that I wasn't sure what his final PCB/PIC board functionality was & whether for example the stepper driver trannies were integrated (next time I'll get a solicitors letter prior to making a similar throwaway quip though)

Now you've clarified, I see that it essentially replaces the aformentioned Excel Spreadsheet (which can easily produce G-Code after inputting all the wind parameters). So what you see as 'brains', I see as a spreadsheet that can be knocked up relatively quickly

I guess, the upside is that going the Elepro way, it removes one step in the overall process (loading G-Code into a CNC program like Mach3)....also, being standalone you're not tied to a PC. The downside is that you're somewhat tied to the writer's feature set.

Anyway, horses for courses & I'm straying off...I'm certainly not dissing what Elepro has done - he obviously produces good stuff & there'll always be those that want others to do the leg work (no matter how simple the leg work is!)...so fair play to him - I hope his PCB/PICs sell well - it's surely a lot of work to get to getting a product to the stage he has.

Right, there's nothing wrong with your system either, I didn't mean it to sound that way, but as I had said another option was the DIY CNC controller. I found that idea more appealing for a self contained winder, and figured some others might too.

But obviously for ultimate control, use a computer like you and Possum do. I like tinkering as much as the next guy, but right now I just want to get a winder built and be done with it!

But thanks for sharing the info. That's what this forum is about.

[David Schwab]

(with my controller you can have this just selecting Random mode ....)

I must have missed that!

peskywinnets, yes my controller just replace your spreadsheet..... and mach3, windows,pc,monitor,keyboard and mouse....

And see, I don't have a PC. I have a bunch of Macs, but no PCs. I could pick up one cheap, and I even have extra monitors, but I just don't want to be bothered with all that at the moment.

I got my motors, and controllers and a nice lead screw from David K., so now I just need the PICS and some parts, and then on to build the winder.

[kevinT]

I did mine the stupid simple way, my winder is the Maxwell Adams type for handwinding, it has no connection with the auto traverse at all. After using it for 4 years, I prefer it this way, you dont have to worry about synch problems, braking, or homing the traverse. Turns per layer are just done by eye, watching the counter with one hand on the traverse, works really well. You can get some really icky tones if you make auto winders too perfect.

I thought that you had your winder hooked up to some kind of matrix printer contraption that provided auto traverse.

[kevinT]

Here are a couple more threads on this topic.


http://music-electronics-forum.com/t4441/


http://music-electronics-forum.com/t11267/


http://music-electronics-forum.com/t1283/

[Possum]

.....

As I said before if you make it too perfect you're going to end up making great copies of bad Chinese factory pickups. I definitely do not want the winder's motor and the traverse synched in any way. I usually set my winder to the speed range I want and set it to top speed with a potientiometer, then write the code based on that speed. Doesn't Mach3 write code too? My cheap program writes code for you, you just make your move and it writes the line. If I want a bit more randomness all I have to do it change the speed with the control knob or write a program that has each line different. A random generator sounds dangerous to me. I suppose if it is truly random it could do a pass with one turn per layer and the next with 400 turns per layer, that is going to sound pretty awful in a guitar. Handwinding is not truly random, you try to maintain a constant traverse but of course you can't so there is some randomness in there but its a focused skilled intent behind it.

I have my R/C winder set up if I want to do hand winding, it would just be real convenient to have it all in one system, so I could pull out a joystick and do it on one machine. But I did google around and I don't see any low budget direct means of doing that with a stepper motor. Bummer.

The CNC programs are not written for coil winders so you have to spend a ton of time figuring out how to get fanatical control over the traverse and make it do your will :-) The program I use will do cool things like decelerate and accelerate so you have vary the turns per layer in one layer with fewer winds in the middle and more dense winds in the ends.

Anyway, what I love about my set up is that is stupid simple, the control board was $35, the software $55, the stepper motor $5. If anything dies a quick trip to Ebay replaces everything. The PC was $90 and its not used for anything else except winding. I have a complete backup system built to drop in if anything fails, but 4 years now and solid as a rock.

Elepro's system sounds way cool, but I don't need anything that controlled. Low tech for me. But I'm sure once he's got it all dialed in he can sell alot of them...

[-Elepro-]

....A random generator sounds dangerous to me. I suppose if it is truly random it could do a pass with one turn per layer and the next with 400 turns per layer....

not in my controller..... it is random between adjustable min and max values....

bye

[Possum]

...

Very good.

[RedHouse]

...what would be the consensus on optimum pickup winding speed RPM (ok, this is likely to be subjective, so maybe maximum RPM speed too?)

Ta,
Pesky.

IMHO, I find that a range between 700-1200 RPM is the sweet spot. Any faster and centifugal force starts to throw the wire away from the bobbins (middle area), and then you need to step-up tension to couter the effects of speed, then when you are finished you have to hand- squish the coil back into shape to finish off the build (tape solder etc) so you run with more tension that you really need when winding at fast speeds.

With the CNC thing, slow (600 RPM) is ok because, as said previously, you can go do other things while the winding process in under way, and the slow wind will make a much more consistant coil pattern, and tension which should give better controll over wire-stretch.

...but I'm sure once he's got it all dialed in he can sell alot of them...

Well that and a decent UI

[Possum]

...

I forgot to mention that if you use a stepper motor as a winding motor you can't use the rubber band trick. My winder uses rubber bands as a drive belt. Read that book mentioned in another thread

[peskywinnets]

IMHO, I find that a range between 700-1200 RPM is the sweet spot. Any faster and centifugal force starts to throw the wire away from the bobbins (middle area), and then you need to step-up tension to couter the effects of speed, then when you are finished you have to hand- squish the coil back into shape to finish off the build (tape solder etc) so you run with more tension that you really need when winding at fast speeds.

With the CNC thing, slow (600 RPM) is ok because, as said previously, you can go do other things while the winding process in under way, and the slow wind will make a much more consistant coil pattern, and tension which should give better controll over wire-stretch.



Well that and a decent UI

that's useful info....even though my Steppers can turn at about 900-100RPM, I still intend gearing them up, because a stepper turning at 1000RPM is a lot noisier than a stepper turning at 200RPM & geared up 1:5!

re the UI, well when it gets to this level (with 105 Keys!) for £0, I'll investigate the standalone path...until then I''ll stick with my PC.....

[David Schwab]

I forgot to mention that if you use a stepper motor as a winding motor you can't use the rubber band trick. My winder uses rubber bands as a drive belt. Read that book mentioned in another thread

You can if the stepper motor is driving another pulley.