Butyrate bobbin shoot out--Bang!

[JGundry]

A few reasons could be:

• they had to move the pickup mounting ring
• they had a different mounting ring or a different pickup on it
• a mistake
• it had modern humbuckers on it, either before (time travel?) or after the prototypes*

Still does not make sense. Think about it, pattern makers made these at Gibson. Skilled craftsmen. This would have been a no brainer. Hand made rings had to fit the guitar and pickup. It would have been make pickups, make rings, cut guitar.

Again why scribe the centers for the poles? No point to scribing them. Why do it? The answer is you wouldn't scribe them, it is a cut down P-90 bobbin. One way to spot a convincing fake is to identify the details that are overdone. On the face of it looks old and super realistic, tons of little details. But it does not really add up.

One more detail that does not add up. There is a wire with white plastic insulation on one of the pickups. Why is it there? Why is it not a regular buss wire like Gibson used on other guitars? Was Gibson even using white plastic wire on guitars in 55'?

I still want an answer as to why the clear nitro under the ring is not lighter in color?

Looks like the photos are pulled off the Gbase site. Maybe it sold?

Maybe they are real. Or maybe they are sort of a novelty repro by somebody who wanted a challenge. It would actually be pretty easy to make a set of these in an afternoon.

Dave, show me some details on that guitar that would make you think it was anything other than a regular production guitar with a larger hole cut in it?

[Possum]

....

Why would anyone make a set of these for a lark? That is such an obscure piece of history what pickup maker can you even name who would even be interested or know about that? Especially if that guitar has existed as is for 20 years. That puts it back at 1990, how many pickup makers were there back then, just Seymour and a few others really. Notice the B pole being lower, thats something an amateur wouldn't have come up with for sure, and the use of vintage P90 bobbins isn't something would even have known about. Notice the rings are completely hand made as well. I think its probably real but without a traceable history, only some real rich guy would buy it as a novelty really.

[JGundry]

Why would anyone make a set of these for a lark? That is such an obscure piece of history what pickup maker can you even name who would even be interested or know about that? Especially if that guitar has existed as is for 20 years. That puts it back at 1990, how many pickup makers were there back then, just Seymour and a few others really. Notice the B pole being lower, thats something an amateur wouldn't have come up with for sure, and the use of vintage P90 bobbins isn't something would even have known about. Notice the rings are completely hand made as well. I think its probably real but without a traceable history, only some real rich guy would buy it as a novelty really.

If there are photos of this guitar from 1990 I would say it is probably authentic. Are these photos from 1990? This thing surfaced within the last 2 or 3 years on Gbase, yes?

I don't think an amateur made these. I think a craftsman who knew what he was doing made them. I just think they look effed up on purpose. Maybe they aren't. But I'm sure you or I could make a set that looks like these. It would be an interesting exercise just to see how they sounded.

The rings are completely hand made yes but why are they completely different from the hand made rings on the Goldtop with prototype pickups. Why make a mold and not use it for both guitars?

[belwar]

I just dont think that pickup is legit. My gut tells me that some guy tried his hand at pickup winding and made this pickup, and dumped it in the guitar.



First off, the wire is is clearly in the spectrum of Poly. I've never see a pickup on a 50's gibson with wire that light - Particularly early 50's.

Secondly, whose to say those are slugs and not rod magnets? It could be someone experimenting trying to get a strat sound from a humbucker for all we know?

Thirdly (it's late to me so im not nessesarily thinking straight on this one) I cant think of any pickup in the 50's that used only a recessed "B". Raised poles sure, but recessed "B"?

Though I will admit it looks like it was made from P90 bobbins by the part line.

Even if it was real, it would seem like a fools errand to "copy" it.. Either from picture alone or from real world measurements. It's not going to sound like a PAF, it's going to sound like two slug bobbins. In fact if it's built from P90 parts its going to have one of those A3 mags that sound like crap in a bucker :/

[Possum]

...

Well if someone was trying to make a counterfeit, there is NO information on what the actual working prototypes were made like so what would anyone have for reference? There are no photos of the Patent app pickup without its cover. Back in 1990 you couldn't buy hobby supplies, magnets or wire unless you were in a related business. The idea that someone would trash some vintage P90 bobbins to make this thing is far fetched. And sorry to tell you but poly wire has been around a long time, Querfurth's book mentions poly insulation in his book copyrighted 1954. It could be PE anyway, coils are hard to photograph sometimes and reflect light like that. Alnico 3 sounds godlike if you have the right batch, I have 50 that make any bucker sound awesome, can't get anymore though. In P90's they are a must. And sorry to say this pickup IS "PAF tone." This is the orginal design as Seth intended it to be. He was against the idea of adjustable poles. Another thing is, who would have access to nickel silver to hand make a baseplate like that, who would take time to hand made a ring like that, then who would put all this stuff on a valuable vintage Gibson guitar? There's just too many pluses for those things being real in my opinion. Then there's the hand writing. Maybe Seymour's memory will return on monday, but it may be that Seth didn't own that guitar and Seymour never saw it, too.

[Sam Lee Guy]

That guitar not for sale!!! belong to friend Jed Johnson who in past own five bursts, two Korina Vs etc...etc... Jed have that guitar since 70's but Sam only first see it in 1986. Previously pickups have vacuformed plastic cover but these misplaced. Rings not moulded but milled from solid CAB block. This guitar not much used and in velly clean condition. Owner replace those pickups with others because they velly ugly then put them back. Bobbins trimmed P-90 and line down middle from P-90 moulding. Wire for sure PE but maybe look pale in photo from flash? Sam not know more about these pickup, if real Gibson/not real etc... but unusual for sure.

Anybody else think that in Seth Lover interview, he talk about order of models getting new humbucker and not individual guitar?

[EFK]

I've got a completely untouched P90 that came out of a 57 LP Jr. that has wire that looks that light when I peek underneath. I can't get a better look at it as I'm not messing with the tape, but it is definitely very light and almost poly-looking. My first thought was WTF but I know the piece it came out of, a trashed 2-owner (uncle/no good nephew) guitar, and it hasn't been messed-with.

Belwar, not to derail this too much but if I could make a brief diversion, why do you say those A3 P90 mags (you mean the really rough ones w. lot's of deep pockmarks?) sound like crap in a bucker? Curious.

[David Schwab]

Still does not make sense. Think about it, pattern makers made these at Gibson. Skilled craftsmen.

I think you are making assumptions. Why would they get some highly paid pattern makers to hobble together a prototype? That's not their job. They would be making the patterns for the production parts. Also they certainly wouldn't use pattern makers to put the pickups on the guitar, right?

And I'm a skilled craftsman, but you should look at the wiring in some of my guitars! That's because I'm always rewiring them and replacing the pickups.
I also have some of my own instruments where the bridge or pickups might be mounted crooked or something because I was in a hurry and just wanted to get it working.

Sometimes quick and dirty is what you need to test a concept. After the prototyping stage you can start to define your design and have real parts made.

Look at the pickup Seth is holding in that photo in the Duncan interview. Does that look like a skilled craftsman made it? Look at the dimples he stamped in to simulate pole pieces. He didn't even bother to make them even. We also have no idea what the bobbins look like in that pickup. Judging from the cover, I'd wager they look a lot like the bobbins in that guitar.

With prototypes cosmetics are the least of your concerns.

Also as I said, that might not even be the guitar those pickups were originally mounted in. However, if it is a 1955 ES-350, what pickups did it have from the factory? Not humbuckers of course. So where are the mounting holes for the dog ears? I don't see any. I also don't see any finish fading around where those original pickups would be. That's more telling than an extra hole or two for a hand made mounting ring. And actually the finish should be darker under the ring because light fades colors, especially reds.

Lover says various bobbins were hand made from celluloid, which would explain the center scribe lines.

From that interview with Lover:

Seth Lover: I went back to work for Gibson and worked for them about 8 months before the war and, so I went back to work for them and was doing more engineering and developed one of their pickups you’ve probably seen with the rectangular magnets that screws up and down, individually adjustable, it first came out on some hollow body guitar...I’ll go get some of those pickups, I have a bunch out there in the garage...here it is, that’s the pickup the first one’s.. shortly before this one was brought out, DeArmond brought one out that had a very large magnet polepiece that was adjustable up and down. It had individual screws and Gibson felt they needed something to compete with that so I designed this one (Alnico pickup with rectangular Alnico magnets) the polepiece are ajustable rectangular magnet.

SWD: How was the bobbin made? Was it cut out with a routing template.

Seth Lover: No...this is a handmade coil form made from a rectangular piece of celluloid and we glued the ends on, drilled the holes out and filed it out to shape to fit the rectangular magnets and this was one of the first hand made ones made. The magnets were so strong on this and if you got it too close to the strings, it would vary the tone and you would get what they call “Woof” tones and that never went over too well, I don’t know whether they made a hundred or two hundred of them and quit.

SWD: Where all the bobbin made by hand or at that time was a special tooling made?

Seth Lover: No unless we got into real quantity we made them by hand, before that the ES-125 pickup eventually had a bobbin made for that, called the P-90.

SWD: Are the coils made by hand in the prototype humbucker (PAF)

Seth Lover: Yes, that’s right, the coil forms are made from celluloid with a bar magnet underneath with iron pole pieces on each side, you see when I first designed this I had the cover plain on the original one...I wanted them to sell it without any adjusting screws because I found that with this there was much difference between the first and second strings like there is on most of the old non adjustable type there was quite a difference in the first & second string but this didn’t seem to have that major difference, and I thought it was not necessary to have pole pieces...well when you take away a talking point from a salesman it’s like breaking off your arm....the first thing I came up with an idea was just fake some things there so I stamped them on the cover, that didn’t please them either, by that time we already made the patent application...that’s why it went through that way, so they finally decided they wanted screws in there, so I put adjusting screws in it for them, then the question they asked me then was which way should those screws set? Should they set up or down? Well you’ve got to give them an answer.. so I decided to take the one closest to the fingerboard and put the screws facing it and the one closest to the bridge towards the bridge, laugh...that made them happy, they had a set way that it should be set, it only amounted to turning the pickup around...

SWD: Did you design the coil form for Gibson.
Seth Lover: Yeah. .When I designed something, I designed the whole thing, the bobbin shape, I made an electric banjo, the solid body electric banjo. a mixer unit.

SWD: So the first coil forms were made by hand?
Seth Lover: Oh yeah--I used celluloid...you’d mix up some acetone and celluloid and from that you’d get a glue. That’s the way you made your glue; you take the chips of celluloid and thin it with acetone until it was in pasty form.

[David Schwab]

Previously pickups have vacuformed plastic cover but these misplaced. Rings not moulded but milled from solid CAB block. This guitar not much used and in velly clean condition. Owner replace those pickups with others because they velly ugly then put them back. Bobbins trimmed P-90 and line down middle from P-90 moulding. Wire for sure PE but maybe look pale in photo from flash? Sam not know more about these pickup, if real Gibson/not real etc... but unusual for sure.

Well that explains the ugly bobbins and extra screw holes.

[JGundry]

That guitar not for sale!!! belong to friend Jed Johnson who in past own five bursts, two Korina Vs etc...etc... Jed have that guitar since 70's but Sam only first see it in 1986. Previously pickups have vacuformed plastic cover but these misplaced. Rings not moulded but milled from solid CAB block. This guitar not much used and in velly clean condition. Owner replace those pickups with others because they velly ugly then put them back. Bobbins trimmed P-90 and line down middle from P-90 moulding. Wire for sure PE but maybe look pale in photo from flash? Sam not know more about these pickup, if real Gibson/not real etc... but unusual for sure.

Anybody else think that in Seth Lover interview, he talk about order of models getting new humbucker and not individual guitar?

I changed my mind now. If that guitar had these pickups since 1986 then I would guess they are legit. Either Seth Lover prototypes of some freakishly similar high school shop project.

Between the Golden Era book and other photos of the Duncan guitar there is enough reference material to make these. But prior to the Golden Era book you would have to take a first hand look at the other Seth Lover prototype pickups IMO.

But I guess if Seymour has some reservation about the pickup he would be the authority.

[soundmasterg]

I think Seymour's haircut philosophy is the same as mine, if it gets too long clip off the ends, period. No barber just 3 minutes with wife and scissors.

No need to scare anyone Possum!

Greg

[Sweetfinger]

Thirdly (it's late to me so im not nessesarily thinking straight on this one) I cant think of any pickup in the 50's that used only a recessed "B". Raised poles sure, but recessed "B"?

[Possum]

....

This was pretty common for early electric pickups because the string gauges were so heavy. Good example is the Charlie Christian pickup, which 2nd version I think it was had a notch in the blade where the B string is. Fender stratocaster pickups had a lower B string pole for a long time....