a talk with Steve from DiMarzio

[kevinT]

I spoke with Steve from Dimarzio and had an interesting conversation with him. He turned out to be a very nice guy and easy to talk to. The main things that we talked about were the trademark on the double cream bobbins, China, and current activities with Fender.

Trademark – Steve stated that he knows that this trademark is very unpopular with folks especially pup makers. However, DiMarzio has no plans to relinquish the current trademark. He said that they’re not out to sue or get anyone. But they will be diligent and tough with folks who infringe because if they let up and allow one pup maker to produce double cream, then everyone else will jump on board and they would ultimately lose the trademark.

I asked how DiMarzio was able to get the trademark when Gibson was the first to use double cream. He basically stated that it wasn’t Gibson’s intent to use double cream and the bobbins were intended to have covers on them. Gibson knew the entire time as DiMarzio was pursuing trademark status on the double creams. Apparently Gibson didn’t have a problem with it because they never challenged the trademark. The justification for the TM is that DiMarzio was the first to intentionally produce the double creams to sell.

Gibson is currently using DiMarzio double cream bobbins (Super Distortion, I think) on the Ace Frehley Les Paul model.

DiMarzio’s double cream bobbin trademark is an American trademark, which means that it only applies to the USA. Pup makers in other countries can make double cream bobbins and sell them. However, they just can’t sell them in the USA.

Carvin is able to use double cream because of the design of the pole pieces. They were able to get around the trademark because DiMarzio’s patent showed only the typical layout of the pole pieces and, as you know Carvin’s are much different.

Seymour Duncan and DiMarzio went to court during the 80s and SD lost the case when they wanted to fight the double cream bobbin trademark. After the court case, SD licensed from DiMarzio the use of double cream bobbins until the license expired.. SD never renewed the license. Because it was a messy situation, Steve told me that DiMarzio has decided that they were NOT going to license the use of double cream bobbins any time soon….you may want to watch for those SD double cream 80’s pickups on ebay. They might be worth something.

China--Steve expressed concern that Chinese pup makers will be the biggest issue in the next few years. Even though no decent pickups are coming out of China right now, he felt that it was going to change in the near future and be the biggest challenge to small pickup companies.

Fender—As some of you may know, Fender is aggressively pursuing trademark status on the design/shape of the Stratocaster. Steve expressed concern because if they get it, they may pursue the trademark on the design of telecaster bridge pickup. Which means pup makers may not be able to produce replacement Tele bridge pickups. I seems that Fender wants to become a publicly traded company on the stock market and they are attempting to add value to the company with these types of activities…obviously to increase share price. Evidently Fender has had their most profitable year in 2006.

I thought that you might find this info helpful directly from the mouth of an industry expert.

[Tonerider]

Rubbish pickups in China...Absolute rubbish...

[Zhangliqun]

Seymour Duncan and DiMarzio went to court during the 80s and SD lost the case when they wanted to fight the double cream bobbin trademark. After the court case, SD licensed from DiMarzio the use of double cream bobbins until the license expired.. SD never renewed the license. Because it was a messy situation, Steve told me that DiMarzio has decided that they were NOT going to license the use of double cream bobbins any time soon….you may want to watch for those SD double cream 80’s pickups on ebay. They might be worth something.

Actually you can get double-cream pu's from Duncan RIGHT NOW. You just have to special order it directly from Duncan and it has to come with a "lightly soldered" cover on it.

Would love to have asked this guy about THAT.

[Spence]

I make them on request but I call them ivory, off-white or anything you like.
I don't try to pass them off as DiMarzios in the same way DiMarzio's not in the habit of faking my pickups.

Can't see what the big hairy-assed deal is with this nonsense.

[soundmasterg]

DiMarzio probably doesn't remember how to make a boutique pickup that sounds good so I don't think you have anything to worry about Spence.

[Spence]

It strikes me that DiMarzio's Trademark is just completely unenforceable anywhere outside the US. Does he think all those Chinese companies are going to give a shit? As a cross reference, there's a lot of guitars coming out of China with Gibson on the headstock and if that isn't a blatant abuse of a Trademark then I'm a Chinaman.

[WolfeMacleod]

Seymour Duncan and DiMarzio went to court during the 80s and SD lost the case when they wanted to fight the double cream bobbin trademark. After the court case, SD licensed from DiMarzio the use of double cream bobbins until the license expired.. SD never renewed the license. Because it was a messy situation,.

I happen to know another side of this story, but..mm'kay...whatever Steve says...

[Possum]

China.....

What Steve really meant was that DIMARZIO is worried about China. DiMarzio pickups almost uniformly suck, I never heard a good one myself, so it won't be that hard for the Chinese to get up to speed to make something better, shit, Andy C.'s already doing it!!! One of my customers pointed out to me that DiMarzio hasn't had a new idea in pickups in over ten years!!! This came from doing a patent and patent application search. These guys are living off the past and are worried about whats coming down the line. They ought to be, the Chinese are hungry for western style of living and their business people are awake and motivated, unlike most businesses in American that are far behind the times, fat and lazy. Innovation in this country is a lost idea......

As for China being a threat to the small pickup maker, no won't happen. There will always be a market for the small pickup maker who works and is driven to make the best sounding pickups possible. You can't make hundreds of pickups a week and maintain a level of tonal quality done by one person one pickup at a time, sorry, not the way business works in this day and age. There will also always be a market for an American crafted tone product. Why do you think Holmes pickups are so highly regarded in Japan? They really aren't all that great ya know? But its because its an American name thats recognized and alot better than anything DM or SD make so they sell. I probably sell 50% of my output to Europeans for the same reason. My market nich is very small but blues guys in Europe want what I make and because I'm an American doing a craft the way this stuff used to be done in the 50s. I put alot of knowledge and experimentation into my products and the tone is no accident and some thoughtless recipe copy. Big companies don't think that way. If DiMarzio is worried about China they are thinking defensively which is a huge mistake, and the same mistake all the companies in the USA are bitching about offshore competition. We don't even make good cars anymore and no new innovation in the automobile industry has come out of this country in years. So everyone is now buying Japanese hybrid vehicles that get great mileage while we're still buidling gas guzzling SUV's. Then they go crying to the government to be bailed out for their stupid short term thinking. If DiMarzio had any brains they would be in China scouting it out because thats where its all coming from, resist it and it will roll over them, adapt or Die. Americans are dumb, huh?

[SkinnyWire]

I make them on request but I call them ivory, off-white or anything you like.
I don't try to pass them off as DiMarzios in the same way DiMarzio's not in the habit of faking my pickups.

Can't see what the big hairy-assed deal is with this nonsense.

I used to sell "double ivory" pickups until I got a letter from DiMarzio threatening legal action if I didn't stop.

Steve's excuses here regarding the double cream trademark are weak at best. Some folks buy pickups based on looks first and THEN tone, that's true as odd as it may seem. In the end though, the quality is what speaks not the the "... yellow color resembling a distinctive shade of cream". That logic is a distinctive shade of brown.

[Spence]

Perhaps you should have gone to court. they would have lost that case as they don't have a trademark for ivory. The best way to get around this problem is not to call them anything. Just show a photo. In fact , and this is a fact, unless your cream bobbins are the same RAL number as theirs they haven't got a leg to stand on.

[SkinnyWire]

It goes against the trademark to sell or advertise pickups that are "yellow resembling a distinctive shade of cream" in the USA. It's easy to say one should just go to court, but easily said doesn't necessarily translate to easily done - a fact I'm sure DiMarzio counts on.

Meanwhile, being in the UK you can do whatever you want with double cream - in the UK - so it's really not much of an issue for you. I imagine you can even put a picture on your website and if a US buyer wants one you were advertising on the Internet, not in the US and being based in the UK it wouldn't be difficult to defend. Since I don't advertise them anymore, I could probably sell them to an overseas buyer but I still wouldn't "advertise" the fact.

I'd be interested in what the "other side of the story" is that was alluded to in another post - mainly out of curiousity.

[kevinT]

I happen to know another side of this story, but..mm'kay...whatever Steve says...

I agree...there's always two sides to every story.

Wolfe, can you enlighten us?

[WolfeMacleod]

I agree...there's always two sides to every story.

Wolfe, can you enlighten us?

Unfortunately, I can't.
Let's just say that when I do my thing, Dimarzio will LOSE.

[DoctorX]

I'm curious.....

Kevin,

Your post is most informative, and I thank you for sharing this with us. I have a few questions for you, however.

What prompted you to contact DiMarzio for this information to begin with? Did DiMarzio want to actually make it known that they too watch this forum by presenting their side of the story through a "third party"?

Are they concerned about losing market share to A LOT of smaller manufacturers? I think a common phrase or a good analogy (no action, real or imagined, towards anything or anyone is implied, intended, threatened or inferred, nor is the poster responsible for the misinterpretation of these words, following or previous, by any agent, heirs, assigns, attorneys in fact, individual or individuals, groups, villages, towns, municipalities, states, proprietorships, partnerships, companies, corporations (sub S or Class C), living or dead, defunct, bankrupt, electronic, virtual or otherwise. Further, the continued reading of the following phrase(s) by any individual or entity classified earlier hereby indemnifies the poster and the owner, operators, and administrators of this forum from any legal action or notification, damages, or loss of monies claimed as a result of this phrase or wording now, and for any future event -- (MA would be proud of me)) is a "death by a thousand cuts", where one small pickup manufacturer wouldn't cause any concern, but what about 100? 200? 300?

Perhaps they are concerned about how their company is regarded by the public and the pickup making community at large. Are you spearheading (or fronting) a public relations campaign to create a better perception of DiMarzio? Perhaps their recent experiences with personnel litigation and how it has been examined and cited as a legal example have left a lasting impression (or sensitivity) about how they are regarded by others. I will admit that this point is a stretch, but we shouldn't discount any possibilities.

Or is it a not-so-subtle warning that DiMarzio is watching, and will strike back if provoked? I wonder what their concerns (if they have any at all) would be when the market is flooded with high quality pickup making parts?

In short, your post sounds like a carefully worded public relations statement intended to reveal the position and intentions of DiMarzio crafted by you with the company's approval.

Or perhaps you yourself work for DiMarzio.

Again, thank you for a most illuminating and thought provoking post. Well played.

I guess you can say the rest of us are watching them, too. Closely.

DoctorX

[DoctorX]

additional legal notice for earlier posting by DoctorX

Please add the following to the legal statement contained within my latest post to this thread ("a talk with Steve from DiMarzio")

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You can't be too sure when talking about "this subject" what will happen next.

DoctorX