New CuNiFe Wide Range Humbuckers exist!

[fieldwrangler]

Are all the pickup coils wired in parallel with a step-up transformer at the output?

Mike -

It's been awhile, but as I recall a bunch (6 - 12 maybe) are wired in series, then that gang is paralleled with the next. Or some such arrangement...

Don't recall any transformer involvement.

Actually, I think the Dyno-My-Rhodes addressed some of the loading issues with an onboard preamp, and perhaps a different wiring scheme...

Bob Palmieri

[fieldwrangler]

I'm having a hard time visualizing how the pickup is situated to the tine.

Can someone use this picture to help explain?

Thanks

David -

The visible polepiece nub sits opposite the free (although weighted) end of the tine.

Bob Palmieri

[jason lollar]

you are right- if the tine is set for a blend of harmonic and fundamental and you hit it harder the harmonic is more pronounced. There is a site called the rhodes supersite- you can find all sorts of info on there.
There is no transformer- the 54 key pickups are all wired in series, the 72 and 88's are series and the parallel- series, parallel and the exact arrangement varied over the years and from model to model- I believe.
The cool thing about rhodes keyboards is you can go through each note and adjust the tambour dramatically so every keyboard can have a different voice.

[David Schwab]

Ah, now I see it. Thanks for the picture Jason.

[Mike Sulzer]

Bob, Jason, Thanks for the info.

I would have thought the inductance would have gotten too high with them all in series, even with 54. Also there is the issue of hum pickup.

[jason lollar]

only the 54 is all series connected. Each pickup is app. 179 DCR and 68 mh
They are wired to humcancel- they are all south towards the tine and all coils are wound the same direction but they connect the end of the first coil to the end of the next and then the start of that second coil to the start of the third coil etc so that effectively reverses the direction of wind like a gibson humbucker is typically connected. Each coil is out of phase with the next but since each coil only picks up a seperate signal from one tine there is no phase issue.

[Mike Sulzer]

only the 54 is all series connected. Each pickup is app. 179 DCR and 68 mh
They are wired to humcancel- they are all south towards the tine and all coils are wound the same direction but they connect the end of the first coil to the end of the next and then the start of that second coil to the start of the third coil etc so that effectively reverses the direction of wind like a gibson humbucker is typically connected. Each coil is out of phase with the next but since each coil only picks up a seperate signal from one tine there is no phase issue.

Very interesting. I was wondering about how they handled the hum from magnetic fields. .068 H times 54 is 3.672 H. That is as much as you would want to have.

[jason lollar]

right - the inductance works out great for standard tube guitar amps- its actually a fairly strong signal- I can get it to distort a non mastervolume silver face fender twin set on 3 which is pretty - well a humbucker powered guitar would take maybe 5 on the same amp to break up a little. Alot of people forget you dont have to reverse the magnets to get humcancelling- reversing the coil direction does that- the reason most humbuckers have each coil reverse magnetic polarity is so both coils are in phase because both coils pickup the same string where as a split coil like a fender 12 string or P bass or mustang bass only has one coil picking up a particular string at one time so they dont need to be magnetically reversed- obviously Frank and Mike and no doubt others know that but alot of people dont.

[Mike Sulzer]

So every other key has opposite polarity. This is probably irrelevant. But it is not something I would want to do on a guitar pickup, or in any case where the instrument would be used through a non-linear amplifier, especially one with asymmetrical non-linearity. The guitar waveform is asymmetrical; it has even harmonics. If you feed this through an asymmetrical non-linear amplifier such as a partially clipped triode the resulting signal is not the same if you reverse the polarity of the input. I am not sure I can hear this, but there are those who claim absolute polarity makes a difference to them.

[David Schwab]

So every other key has opposite polarity. But it is not something I would want to do on a guitar pickup...

That would be an issue if you were bending strings!

I am not sure I can hear this, but there are those who claim absolute polarity makes a difference to them.

I've read that only some people can hear phase reversals. I once sat and listened to a pickup as I switched a phase reversal switch and swore I could hear something, but it as very subtle and wasn't worth worrying about.

For guitar pickups though, what is in phase or out if it's a single pickup? There is no standard way of doing it. The only way I've noticed this is if you are trying to get some sustain/feedback from an amp. In that case the phase of the signal coming out matters because it has to interact with the strings. I doubt you would hear a difference in tone though, and it's a very simple thing to try.

Even if the signal is asymmetrical you can still flip that waveform and it will sound the same. It's still asymmetrical, only in reverse. I do it with audio editing software all the time.

[Chris Turner]

right - the inductance works out great for standard tube guitar amps- its actually a fairly strong signal- I can get it to distort a non mastervolume silver face fender twin set on 3 which is pretty - well a humbucker powered guitar would take maybe 5 on the same amp to break up a little. Alot of people forget you dont have to reverse the magnets to get humcancelling- reversing the coil direction does that- the reason most humbuckers have each coil reverse magnetic polarity is so both coils are in phase because both coils pickup the same string where as a split coil like a fender 12 string or P bass or mustang bass only has one coil picking up a particular string at one time so they dont need to be magnetically reversed- obviously Frank and Mike and no doubt others know that but alot of people dont.

So you're saying that in a split-coil design, only the winding direction has to be reversed (or more likely, the winding is the same, but the leads are reversed when hooked up) for them to be humbucking?

[Mike Sulzer]

So you're saying that in a split-coil design, only the winding direction has to be reversed (or more likely, the winding is the same, but the leads are reversed when hooked up) for them to be humbucking?

Of course. The hum pickup has nothing to do with the permanent magnets and their polarity. But that sure does matter for whether you cancel the signal or double it in a hubucker.

[Mike Sulzer]

Of course it matters for string bending.

But what I am talking about is the effect of asymmetrical distortion on an asymmetrical waveform. That makes a difference in the resulting waveform.

That would be an issue if you were bending strings!



I've read that only some people can hear phase reversals. I once sat and listened to a pickup as I switched a phase reversal switch and swore I could hear something, but it as very subtle and wasn't worth worrying about.

For guitar pickups though, what is in phase or out if it's a single pickup? There is no standard way of doing it. The only way I've noticed this is if you are trying to get some sustain/feedback from an amp. In that case the phase of the signal coming out matters because it has to interact with the strings. I doubt you would hear a difference in tone though, and it's a very simple thing to try.

Even if the signal is asymmetrical you can still flip that waveform and it will sound the same. It's still asymmetrical, only in reverse. I do it with audio editing software all the time.

[Chris Turner]

Of course. The hum pickup has nothing to do with the permanent magnets and their polarity. But that sure does matter for whether you cancel the signal or double it in a hubucker.

Heh... you say "of course" as if it was self-evident. Thanks for the clarification, though.

[fieldwrangler]

Regarding these phase issues...

Yes, absolute phase is certainly an issue when driving a preamp with asymmetrical response. Also, I seem to recall that in a test performed many years ago folks could really tell one way from the other when listening to a kick drum recording, as the sensation of a speaker cone popping out at you on impact is likely quite different from one that sucks the air away.

Also, as a feedback influence it's certainly of practical significance, especially with acoustic guitar & bass. I usually include an absolute polarity switch when making preamps for these applications. And when doing so, I make sure I'm not just throwing in an extra stage in one position only, since I'm sure that would produce an audible effect.

However, in a situation where many physical oscillators (like strings or tines) are all sounding simultaneously (and likely sympathetically) I do have a feeling that relative polarity between individual pickups could be significant, and I'll bet that having them all functionally in phase would be the way to go. Although, who knows; maybe those clustery chords that Herbie Hancock likes to play would sound more "cluttered" with a fully in-phase array....

In fact, I think I listened for this when effect making those one-coil-per-string pickups for the Parker basses in the 80's and found that there was an audible difference...