For those who like to read...

[Plucky]

I was going to be putting together a heart-shaped cam tutorial for those who might be interested(mainly focusing on determining geometry), but I thought I should make sure one didn't already exist online. Then I stumbled across this...

Coil Winding

[jason lollar]

nice- do a search on this forum- maybe for cams or maybe leesona and youll find a link I put up to a page that shows many variatioons on the cam you are talking about along with the math- there is one that runs contant velocity in one direction then jumps back to the start really fast and then slowly returns again- some odd stuff.

[JGundry]

Cam geometry changes with traverse distance and it is not just the diameter of the cam. The heart shape changes with traverse distance. Some machines use one cam for several traverse distances. The Coweco uses a sloped cam and the heart shape changes along the slope. The Leesona 102 uses one cam shape that is not sloped for the smallest traverse which is under 1/4" to the largest traverse which is over 3 inches. Because of this the winding pattern with the Leesona is unique due to it's unique the mechanism it uses to have such a wide traverse throw with a single non sloped cam.

[RedHouse]

I was going to be putting together a heart-shaped cam tutorial for those who might be interested(mainly focusing on determining geometry), but I thought I should make sure one didn't already exist online. Then I stumbled across this...

Coil Winding

Hey Plucky, can ya post the PDF somewhere?
(for those of us who don't have a facebook or scribd account)

[oc disorder]

The PDF is here (scroll down)
Coil Winding - Geotech Forums
6.7mb split into 7 rar files

[Plucky]

Hey Plucky, can ya post the PDF somewhere?
(for those of us who don't have a facebook or scribd account)

Scribd is free. just create username, password, give email address. Doesn't have to be real email.

[jason lollar]

"Because of this the winding pattern with the Leesona is unique due to it's unique the mechanism it uses to have such a wide traverse throw with a single non sloped cam. "

You dont mean the leesona is the only machine designed that way right?- I saw you mention PAF can only be made on a PAF era winder so you must be refferring to other winders too- there are lots of old winders that use a single non sloped cam I own several of this type and have used them for years

[David Schwab]

The PDF is here (scroll down)
Coil Winding - Geotech Forums
6.7mb split into 7 rar files

Why so many parts? It took me a whole 10 seconds to download the whole PDF from Scribd.

[JGundry]

"Because of this the winding pattern with the Leesona is unique due to it's unique the mechanism it uses to have such a wide traverse throw with a single non sloped cam. "

You dont mean the leesona is the only machine designed that way right?- I saw you mention PAF can only be made on a PAF era winder so you must be refferring to other winders too- there are lots of old winders that use a single non sloped cam I own several of this type and have used them for years

Yes I am saying that the Leesona 102 design is unique to it. I own vintage winders from 6 different companies and I also have the REA fine wire winding machine which I believe you use. And yes the Leesona is unique among them. All of the other machines that use cams are much smaller and have a much finer tolerance than the much larger Leesona 102. Tolerance and physical mass of the winding mechanism in the Leesona 102 effects the way it winds among other things. Was there a specific winding machine model that you think behaves just like the Leesona 102? There are 4 different models of machines that wound PAF's and I am keeping that information to myself for the moment. But I will tell you that they all behave differently due to the physical differences in the winder designs and also due to the traverse modifications Gibson made to the machines.

Are you sure I said a PAF can only be made on a PAF era winder? I think I said that if you want to fully research all of the aspects of winding a PAF you should have experience with the models of machines that wound them and ideally own the same models of machines.

[jason lollar]

These old machines are based on 19th century knitting machine technology- if it uses the same cam which were made in a machine shop to a specific set of mathmatical calculations and the linkage to the traverser is similar or the same I just dont see it. If its about slop and of spec tolerance how would any one know if one leesona acts the same as another- how would anyone know one had the same out of tolerance performance as another- all these old machines are sloppy and they do get waer which makes them even sloppier and you can set them up to be even more out of whack depending on the outboard attachments and how they are made and what they are made of. All those odd coil patterns I dont see anything that isnt repeatable if its really about shape- thats all how you set the traverse distance and how you center the wire guide. Now something like a Tanac- it is so precise you can get exactly 100 turns per layer on every layer- there is no having to allow for coil expansion because your winder is too sloppy to go all the way to the edge of the bobbin.
If you unwind a paf bobbin- enough of them that is- you will know if your winder will either be able to repeat the same anomolies or not and I agree it is about slop in the auto winder and how the machine is set up.

[JGundry]

Jason I hate to tell you but you are just misinformed about this. I don't really feel the need to convince you but in case you are interested here are some details that make the actual machines important.

There were 4 machines that wound PAF's that I know of. Only two of them used cams. The linkages are way different on both of the cam machines. Wear is not really an issue with traverse linkages on these two machines. The Leesona 102 cam linkage runs in a well oiled enclosure and has a complex linkage after the cam that I have not seen on any other machine. The other two non cam PAF winding machines have patterns that just can't be duplicated by a cam driven machine. The only way to duplicate the action of any of these machines it to make a copy of the machine. Figuring the slop of a machine by unwinding bobbins is really a guess at best. Even with the slop there are variables that come into play depending upon the specific machine. I get a lot of vintage PAF's and pat # pickups that come in for repair and I can assure you that you are missing something in your observations if you think that all PAF bobbins were simply wound on a cam driven machine and that slop and set up are the only variables.

I think I have a different definition of what I want my PAF clones to be than you. I want to duplicate all of the parameters and parts of the assembly to the best of my ability and to use control those parameters to make pickups I like. That includes butyrate bobbins, PE wire.... and also the actual machine models that wound PAF's because each of them have their own mechanical quirks. You have a broader definition of what a PAF clone should be. Your definition includes things like Poly wire and cam driven machines that were not used to wind PAF's and that is totally cool as long as you are getting the tone you want.

[jason lollar]

I dont think you have much qualification to tell me what my definition of a paf "clone" is- thats silly.

[JGundry]

I dont think you have much qualification to tell me what my definition of a paf "clone" is- thats silly.

I'm not sure where your going with a statement like this frankly. I'm offering up what I know just as you. Obviously you know your product and I know mine and we both define the parameters. I don't think anyone is disputing that. Perhaps I am mistaken and you don't consider yourself to be making a PAF clone and if that is the case I stand corrected.

[Plucky]

Lesson #1



Diagram of a pickup-maker

[David Schwab]

Lesson #1

[ATTACH=CONFIG]10529[/ATTACH]

Diagram of a pickup-maker

It wobbles, but does it quack? And that pre CBS/pre Norlin quack is the best. The new ducks are more like Coots and don't nail that vintage vibe.