MIcrophonic Ric-'Buckers...

[fieldwrangler]

Folks -

I have here a modern solidbody (neck-thru) 24 fret Ric with the owner complaining about feedback. Tapping lightly on the chrome-plated rings definitely makes a louder sound than I'd like; with these bezels off taps to the pickup (which appears to be wrapped in that cool stuff they use for light-guage aircraft interior parts) are still pretty loud but much less ringy, as you might expect.

Without tearing off these black wrappers (which seem to be vacu-formed and bonded to the coils in some way) I don't expect much penetration from my usual wax dipping method; also I'm worried that the heat might deform this material in some ugly way.

Anyone have experience with these pickups either regarding safe disassembly or sufficient control of microphonics? Right now I'm tempted to just stick some damping material between the rings and main pickup bodies and call it a fix...

Bob Palmieri

[big_teee]

Folks -

I have here a modern solidbody (neck-thru) 24 fret Ric with the owner complaining about feedback. Tapping lightly on the chrome-plated rings definitely makes a louder sound than I'd like; with these bezels off taps to the pickup (which appears to be wrapped in that cool stuff they use for light-guage aircraft interior parts) are still pretty loud but much less ringy, as you might expect.

Without tearing off these black wrappers (which seem to be vacu-formed and bonded to the coils in some way) I don't expect much penetration from my usual wax dipping method; also I'm worried that the heat might deform this material in some ugly way.

Anyone have experience with these pickups either regarding safe disassembly or sufficient control of microphonics? Right now I'm tempted to just stick some damping material between the rings and main pickup bodies and call it a fix...

Bob Palmieri

Hi Bob:
Anyway to get some pictures or tell us what model of pickups you are dealing with.
Are they buckers or SCs? I would love to be able to see what your dealing with?
Terry

[fieldwrangler]

Terry -

Thanks for the quick response. They appear to be humbuckers (two blades flanking a cermic magnet visible from the rear.) Here they are with the rings removed (and one ring visible}:

Hey... I just realized that I don't seem to know how to attach a snap to this post; a dialog box came up asking for the image's URL; do I hafta post it first?

[fieldwrangler]

Part Deaux

Well... I see that many more options come up using this method; lemme see if I can do it now:


Oy... hope this works....

[Rick Turner]

Those look like vacuuformed ABS, and yes, it will be heat sensitive, but might survive.

Also pickup bezels like that are essentially a large low Z shorted turn around the pickup. I'd see if the pickups sound different without that bezel. If they do, and you like it, go without; if you want to try an interesting experiment, cut a slot in the middle of one long side of the bezel to break the shorted turn. No pony in this race, just suggesting an experiment.

[fieldwrangler]

Thanks, Rick!

I'm familiar with the shorted-turn idea, and I shudder to think of how many pickups I fully wrapped in an overlapping strip of copper tape before I knew about this...

In this case I think the customer might not dig the cut in the bezel.

Bob Palmieri

[David Schwab]

Aren't those pickups encapsulated in epoxy? Someone posted a photo here once showing the back of one of the humbuckers which had developed an open coil.

If they are only using epoxy for potting that's why they are microphonic. (don't ask how I know).

[Rick Turner]

You can vacuum pot with low viscosity epoxy, but it's such a messy process that it's just not worth it and it's horribly wasteful of expensive resin. (don't ask how I know...)

[soundmasterg]

Those pickups are humbuckers with a bar through each coil, and a samarium cobalt magnet on the back in the middle of each coil. There is probably a circuit board on the back too somewhat covering the magnet, and the wires from the coil solder into one end of the circuit board? Rickenbacker has made these style of humbuckers since around 1989, though the earlier ones mounted differently. Those chrome rings are just used to mount the pickups to the guitar. These pickups are epoxied from the factory and as far as I know, if they are microphonic there is really nothing you can do as the epoxy has dried that way with a loose coil I would guess. I have an early 90's Ric humbucker with this problem. They have gotten progressively better as far as how they do the epoxy on the back. The early ones had a large gap between the epoxy and the wire solder joints to where something can get in there easily and break the coil wire. In the early 90's they made their epoxy go all the way up to the bottom of the circuit board and it protects things better. The earlier ones were around 12k - 13k and the modern ones are more like 14k - 15k, and they are all wound with 44 gauge wire, probably formvar like the rest of their pickups. The bobbins are some nylon-like material, and that black plastic cover will melt very easily. They are very powerful pickups, brighter and more aggressive than your standard full size Gibson humbucker. They do rock and heavy music very well and still retain clarity and string definition even when going through heavy distortion. They can be too bright. I use flatwounds on the 1989 RIC 230 that I own that has these pickups. Rickenbacker still makes them and they can be purchased directly from Rickenbacker, or some people also sell them used on the Rick Resource forum, among other places.

Hope that helps.

Greg

P.S. Before 1989, and probably as far back as the early 80's or late 70's, Rickenbacker made a pickup that looks very similar to this, but this pickup was a single coil with steel shielding on each side of the pickup. The cover is actually exactly the same as the one in your pictures, whereas some of the humbuckers have a cover without the mounting wings.

[Bruce Johnson]

Rick;
I've been potting my pickups with Smith's MultiWoodPrime, which is a super low viscosity epoxy. It flows like gasoline. I dab and drip it over my coils with no vacuum chamber. It soaks in thoroughly and locks up the coils all the way through. Cure time is a couple of hours. I also like it because it doesn't dry brittle, like a superglue would. As a potting technique, it's all or nothing. As soon as it's applied, it soaks the whole coil. It would be hard to do a graduated partial-microphonics thing with it. So, it's not for everybody, but it works for what I'm building. I've been using it for about 5 years.

Bases on soundmasterg's description, the MultiWoodPrime might work to soak in to those Ric pickups and lock up the loose areas. That would kill the microphonics, but would the customer like the resulting sound? I dunno.

Have you considered asking Ric if they'll swap a set? They might.

[fieldwrangler]

Greg & Bruce -

Thanks very much for this info. (These pickups appear to have a single magnet polarizing both blades, but I don't think that makes much difference.)

I may try getting in touch with Ric, as well as getting my hands on some of the Smith's Majic Elixer. I'm not too worried about the owner complaining about the loss of residual acoustic information represented in a ringy, hi-Q manner...

Not that I don't believe in beneficial microphonic effects in magnetic pickups, I just don't think this is any kind of shining example.

Anyone know of a particularly sympathetic ear over at Rickenbacker??

Bob Palmieri

[soundmasterg]

Greg & Bruce -

Thanks very much for this info. (These pickups appear to have a single magnet polarizing both blades, but I don't think that makes much difference.)

I may try getting in touch with Ric, as well as getting my hands on some of the Smith's Majic Elixer. I'm not too worried about the owner complaining about the loss of residual acoustic information represented in a ringy, hi-Q manner...

Not that I don't believe in beneficial microphonic effects in magnetic pickups, I just don't think this is any kind of shining example.

Anyone know of a particularly sympathetic ear over at Rickenbacker??

Bob Palmieri

I doubt if anyone at Rickenbacker would help you with this aside from giving advice. They would just want to sell you a new pickup most likely. They are all a friendly lot over there, but the bottom line is the bottom line I guess.

In my 1989 RIC 230, the neck pickup became defective when I had the pickup out for guitar refinishing. It was my fault, as the coil start wire broke where it comes out of the epoxy and goes to the solder tab on the circuit board, but it was also Rickenbacker's fault for making a poor design. While the pickup they make now is better as far as how the epoxy is on the bottom as compared to the old ones, they are very similar to the older style in my guitar, with the main difference being in the way they mount. If I wanted to go with something completely original, then I would have to hunt down an old one. I emailed John Hall, CEO of Rickenbacker, for help and he said they had a spare pickup of the same basic vintage as mine sitting around. (It was actually a couple years newer with more DC resistance) Rather then letting me buy it outright, he stuck it on an ebay auction and I had to win the bid to get it, which I did. Unfortunately the pickup was microphonic at loud volumes. I still have it in the guitar, and I've since got some others to try that will hopefully not be microphonic. The original pickup still reads ok if I touch the tip of the meter to the tip of the wire protruding out of the bobbin surface, but it will be extremely hard to fix. I haven't gotten brave enough to try yet, but will one of these days. It sounded good enough to warrent that effort. I may try to fix the microphonic one as suggested so thanks for the tip Bruce!

Greg

[Bruce Johnson]

From what you're telling me, I think the Smith's MultiWoodPrime would fix those pickups. It most likely will seep in and lock up those loose windings.

Here's the source: MultiWoodPrimeTM CREATES COATING ADHESION

A couple of cautions:

The fumes from this stuff will knock you on your ass. You really need to work with it outdoors or with a fan blowing right on you!

The viscosity is about like the super-thin superglue or denatured alcohol. You can't mix it in paper cups...it'll go right through the walls. It's also really hard to pour it out of the cans without spilling it all over. I use a pair of plastic turkey basters from the grocery store (clearly marked A and B) to draw the liquid parts out of the cans and into a pair of small plastic mixing cups. I then pour one part into the other and stir them. In a small quantity (an ounce) the pot life is maybe 30 minutes. I use a wool dauber or a small disposable hobby brush to apply it to the coils. Just dab it on and watch it soak in. Keep adding more until it appears saturated. Cure time is about 4 hours. It doesn't appear to have any heating effect while curing. It bonds very well to other epoxy and the wire and everything else you'd expect epoxy to bond to.

Because it's so thin, you have to be careful how you hold and orient the pickup while applying it. Like superglue, it'll start running out the cracks everywhere. Keep the beauty side up. I suspend my coils on wire rods over a tray, dab it on and let it drip out the bottom.

[David Schwab]

I doubt if anyone at Rickenbacker would help you with this aside from giving advice. They would just want to sell you a new pickup most likely. They are all a friendly lot over there, but the bottom line is the bottom line I guess.

I knew a guy once that had a nice 4005 bass. He actually got it by calling Rickenbacker and asking if they had any floor models for sale!

The same guy had a 4001 bass, and at some point the bridge had collapsed, so he sent it back to them and wanted it replaced. Not only would they not replace it without him buying a new one, they wouldn't send back his bridge because they said "We don't sell defective parts, and this is defective." He argued that they sold it to him in the first place! I don't know if they thought it was a fake or something.

He ended up going to a local luthier who fashioned a replacement from a chrome plated piece of threaded rod and some hex screws for adjustment. Personally I would have gotten the new bridge.

[soundmasterg]

I'll see if I can post a pic of the back of these pickups that I have. I don't see where any of that stuff would be able to penetrate any further into the coils than what the epoxy is already...so maybe a picture might help?

Greg