Pickup theory question

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

The pickup response is relatively simple. The speaker is a huge mess and provides most of the coloration of the tone.

I knew a guitar teacher once who always told his students to play through their amps, (as opposed to sitting on the couch playing unplugged while watching TV) because when you're playing electric guitar, "you're really playing the amp"... One of the best pieces of advice I'd ever heard, honestly. Tangent I know, but such a good point whether we're talking about basic guitar skills, guitar design, or musicality.

[Steve Conner]

Rick, I am playing devil's advocate of course. I'm not going to quibble with the guy who made Stanley Clarke sound the way he did.

I knew a guitar teacher once who always told his students to play through their amps, (as opposed to sitting on the couch playing unplugged while watching TV) because when you're playing electric guitar, "you're really playing the amp"

This is fine advice for a guitarist. But for a pickup designer... You're not designing the amp, and you need to get clear in your head which aspects of the tone are due to the pickup in its own right, as opposed to interaction between the pickup and the amp.

This is why I like Rick's idea of using hi-fi equipment: it removes a bunch of variables from the experiment. Of course you need to test your pickup designs with guitar amps too. But which ones?

I think (and this is just wild speculation ) that's why I never liked PRS's own make pickups. Mine sounded great through a high-gain amp flat out, for that kind of heavily tattooed alt-rock sound. But they never sounded like I felt proper PAF-style pickups ought to. Maybe the pickup guy at PRS had lots of piercings and tested them on a Dual Rectifier.

[Rick Turner]

Mike, the differences among pickups can be heard with any speaker system that isn't totally crap or blown up. I'm not going to disagree that the speakers are important, but I think you have an oversimplified view of what affects the sound of a pickup.

Steve, I was responding to Mike's challenge re. what I listen through for critical ear testing of gear. The point is that I have a lot of options ranging from normal to mildly esoteric. Along those lines, when I lived in LA, I had access to Jackson Browne's studio for critical listening; that's how I developed my early piezo acoustic guitar pickups...the ones that became the Highlander and also the D-TAR Timberline. Granted, electric guitar pickups have different criteria, but I do know and practice careful listening tests, and I'm pretty good at not fooling myself.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

This is fine advice for a guitarist. But for a pickup designer... You're not designing the amp, and you need to get clear in your head which aspects of the tone are due to the pickup in its own right, as opposed to interaction between the pickup and the amp.

I agree entirely. I just think it is incredibly important to realize that there is a whole mess of less than transparent things happening in an amp, whether you're practicing scales or making pickups. That's all. I do think it is also an argument that guitar amps need to be kept in the loop. It might be like listening to the sound of a solid body electric guitar acoustically to judge the tone before plugging it in. Of course it is a wise thing to do (I flat out won't like a guitar plugged in that I didn't like acoustically), but not the only metric. I realize that this thread isn't about finally judgement of pickups but rather about gathering data, so I'll leave it at that.

I prefer real world experiments, but I'll gladly let you guys to the tests and steal your results. *joke*

I never liked the PRS pickups, either. Too many hard edges.

Regarding your epistemological bit, that is why I always want other people to play instruments for me. If it is client owned, I want the client to play it. PRS pickups (as well as most active pickups) simply don't suit my playing style. I listen differently if I'm not the one playing. This is partly the whole "tone is in the fingers" cliche, but I think it is also psychological. In the same way we can walk by a mirror and nothing in the mirror startles us but our own reflection, or that our own voice always seems strange when we hear it on our voicemail, our own playing sounds different to us. I was recently reading a book on Leo Fender, and it struck me that because he didn't play guitar, he was perpetually at the mercy of listening to other people play and while I'm not going to attribute the genius of his instruments to that (that would be too romantic for my tastes) it did make me wonder what it would be like working in this business if I didn't even know my open chords.

I'm sure someone on here will get all tense and tell me how stupid I am for saying that, but I'll throw it out there anyway. You guys are fun to aggravate.

[Rick Turner]

If you want to live in one version of the real world, try going back a couple of hundred years before doctors washed their hands! We move forward by seeing the previously unseeable while still living in the real world. The real world includes tools for viewing and understanding things at the micro and nano levels...

I also always depend on my musician clients for reality checks, and when my instruments are being used at live shows I attend, I check in with whoever is mixing the sound to get their opinions...when they're not taking abuse from the lead singer about the monitors...

[Mike Sulzer]

For ultra critical listening, the Joe Grado headphones are incredible.

That is in general true, even for cheaper models. I just wish the foam pads lasted longer in Puerto Rico. You name it, there is something to eat it here.

However, I have to agree with F. If you are designing it for a guitar amp, then design it using a guitar amp. You do not want to make choices based on what you cannot hear; they could be the wrong compromise.

[Rick Turner]

And I do use a guitar amp, but not as my sole listening reference. Just as this thread turned into one about trying to hear the tonal differences among magnet types by stripping away "filtering factors", so to do I attempt to strip away the filtering factors on down the amplification chain. It doesn't mean I'm designing for high fidelity speakers only; it just means that I'm trying to hear those underlying subtleties that may be masked by other things, yet still influence the overall sound.

[Mike Sulzer]

... It doesn't mean I'm designing for high fidelity speakers only; it just means that I'm trying to hear those underlying subtleties that may be masked by other things, yet still influence the overall sound.

That makes perfect sense to me.

[David Schwab]

My scientific viewpoint is not a problem. First you have to see what people are actually hearing. Then you have to figure out why.

Green is the color for power grounds. Inside a chassis, some people used black for ground, and red for the positive power supply. (It was simple with tubes, only one polarity. Then there was purple for negative supplies, but it gets complicated fast.)

If a guitar is like a chassis, I would use black for ground.

I still use green for grounds. I use black for the (+) signal in a guitar.

[fieldwrangler]

Now for a different viewpoint.

I've believed since I started making pickups that the shape and density of the magnetic field as it relates to the string and the position and shape and depth of the coil is very important to tone. Change anything in the magnet(s) or pole pieces and you'll change the three dimensional dynamic interface among the strings, coil(s), and magnetic circuit.

And David, yes, I was the one who came up with the Alembic "Hot Rod" kit in 1973 for juicing up humbuckers with Ceramic V magnets. Blame that on on me!

The biggest problem with jacking up magnetic strength is "Stratitis"...the braking effect of the magnetic pull on the strings.

You want more output without adding turns or putting in stronger magnets? Wind flatter coils with more turns closer to the strings. It might even be worth trying to design ultra thin bobbin flanges or even putting self supporting coils that don't need that thickness of the bobbin material. You might even be able to wind coils with fewer turns of thinner wire where all the turns are closer to the strings than with conventional pickups.

My earliest pickups were bobbin-less. Might have to try that again.

Rick -

Haven't been on this forum in awhile, but I hafta say I agree all the way with everything you've said here.

Bob Palmieri

[RedHouse]

My scientific viewpoint is not a problem....

Actually, it IS the problem Mike, in this thread and most of the threads you post in. Psuedo-science arguing out loud again.

Sure you're desparate to turn art into science but it's never gonna happen here, if you can't hear the subleties it doesn't mean they don't exist.

We've been down this road before numersous times.

[Mike Sulzer]

Actually, it IS the problem Mike, in this thread and most of the threads you post in. Psuedo-science arguing out loud again.

Sure you're desparate to turn art into science but it's never gonna happen here, if you can't hear the subleties it doesn't mean they don't exist.

We've been down this road before numersous times.

Because you think you hear them does not mean that you do. Try running careful listening tests and learning a bit about how things work, and you might be surprised at what is and is not real. Think about what Salvarsan wrote recently in another discussion
.

[RedHouse]

Because you think you hear them does not mean that you do. Try running careful listening tests and learning a bit about how things work, and you might be surprised at what is and is not real. Think about what Salvarsan wrote recently in another discussion
.

Typically arrogant Mike, "Try running careful listening tests and learning a bit about how things work" are you short term memory challenged or just can't read? how many times have I, and others, mentioned listening tests?

But when anyone does, you shift the arguement to what the testing scenario was being used, recall the capacitor test thread recently. It's all just the same 'ol arguements, the world according to Mike, if he can't hear it ...or think it, ...it doesn't exist.

PPhhhhttt! because you can't hear it, or grasp it, doesn't mean it's not valid.

Next thread.

[David King]

Mike,
Back to the Grados, I got a really nice set of replacement pads for my 80s from Tyle at Headroom. They're way more comfortable than the originals and have not hardened or gummed up in 5 years of use.
Grado Earpads (Soft) Pair | HeadRoom Audio

[Mike Sulzer]

Mike,
Back to the Grados, I got a really nice set of replacement pads for my 80s from Tyle at Headroom. They're way more comfortable than the originals and have not hardened or gummed up in 5 years of use.
Grado Earpads (Soft) Pair | HeadRoom Audio

Thanks. It looks like they have them in stock.