Seymour's new cryo-silver pickup

[Dave Kerr]

I saw this on another forum and started to search for some of Frank Falbo's old posts here (I seem to recall some back and forth with Rick, Spence and others on cryo treatment), and his name didn't come up in the member spec in advanced search. Weird, has he taken a powder from here?

and silver magnet wire - really? Interesting typo - "a con focused on defining what's next for guitar"

edit - I knew I forgot something - thanks for the link, Mark
edit2 - and it looks like Frank is still a member, I blew the search by using upper case "F"

[Mark Hammer]

Seymour Duncan New Products - SEYMOUR DUNCAN ZEPHYR™ SERIES ZEPHYR™ SILVER PICKUPS

$1200 a set, eh? An interesting experiment, I suppose, not unlike what the big auto manufacturers do when developing one-off vehicles for the racing circuit. What I wonder, though, is this: after all of the work that pickup makers have gone to to develop methods and materials that can reliably nail the tones we want, what would the silver pickups do that supercedes that? Looking through the ad copy, the chief virtue seems to not be in the realm of tone, but merely consistency. Ultimately, it feels like the difference between a regular 10k resistor and a mil spec 10k resistor. I give him credit for being willing to consider other materials, but this really seems like somethng for the specsmanship crowd and not musicians.

[JGundry]

It is skillful marketing. Companies products like this for trade shows. You put in a revolving plexi covered case and it draws interest. It will get coverage and PR simply due to the price and will increase exposure for the company. It is a smart move that probably pays for itself in press coverage alone. Sort of the Bentley approach to pickup making. If you have the most expensive, custom product on the market if gives you a certain cred. among some. But at the core it is a repackaging of a known platform and frankly in a direction that puts it into novelty territory. Still a good move for the PR though. It is coming out of their custom shop so I have no doubt it will sound good.

[salvarsan]

A zephyr is a gentle wind from the west, as distinct from a blast of hot air from California.

Silver wire pickups seemed like an interesting idea both times that I broached it,
once on each pickup makers forum. The put up cost seemed to be about $1500
to any wire manufacturor that replied to our queries.

Seymour probably bought more than 3 lbs of wire, so his pickup pricing probably
reflects the initial put-up cost.

Silver wire pickup thread

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I'm not buying it - literally or figuratively.

I'm sure great pickups could be made with silver wire, but if the wire is so expensive it tells you that there is virtually no R&D process... who would want to wind a bunch of pickups with it only to peel them and try again? This would be necessary to get the hang of what sonic benefits could be brought by using silver wire. Perhaps the increased conductivity increase capacitance and it gets very dark... wouldn't know that until you try. Or maybe it becomes brighter for some strange reason... can't wind it a few times to learn how to compensate and really make it shine. So, I don't doubt that they probably used a formula that worked for copper wire, substituted silver, and you get what you get. That is a horrible way to design a pickup, IMO. Everyone here knows that learning how to get a good sounding pickup means having lots of fuzzy clumps of wire in the trash can.

But then again, if it is sheerly for marketing... like say, a solid gold guitar, or having more inlay than wood on an acoustic (like some of the trade show Martins) then whatever. JGundry is right, though I'd never do it myself.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

That probably should lead to a post I've been meaning to make about who recycles their old magnet wire, huh?

[David King]

LeFay was supposedly doing Ag wire pickups in the early oughts but the price was nothing like $900. I know Ag magnet wire was available was out of Japan. I know it's used in some audiophile amp transformers -(also from Jp?)

Why not just Ag plated copper?

I'd like to hear some aluminum or tin wound pickups some day.

[salvarsan]

Why not just Ag plated copper?

Doesn't help conductivity, except at low RF ~100kHz. It is superior in solderability and the silver oxide is more conductive than copper oxide.

[David King]

At 100kH and below I thought.

[Mike Sulzer]

Silver has a conductivity about 7.5% higher than copper. Here is a thought experiment: Measure the diameter of a piece of their silver wire, both with and without the insulation.

Now make some copper wire that is 1.0368 times greater in diameter than their silver wire (without the insulation); it will have the same conductivity as theirs since the surface area will be 1.075 times greater. Now insulate our copper wire with a thinner layer than they used, just enough to make the diameter with insulation the same as the diameter with insulation of the silver wire. Now wind a pickup. It should be the same as their silver wire pickup, or should it?

[salvarsan]

I'm not buying it - literally or figuratively.

I'm sure great pickups could be made with silver wire, but if the wire is so expensive it tells you that there is virtually no R&D process... who would want to wind a bunch of pickups with it only to peel them and try again?

If you read the ad copy, there was more to it than wire. He also uses a different alloy for the pole pieces, and cryo-treats the assembled pickup.

This isn't a case of silver wire alone, but a collection of incremental changes.
Certainly, it will sound different from a conventional pickup.

Everyone here knows that learning how to get a good sounding pickup means having lots of fuzzy clumps of wire in the trash can.

That may be true when someone first learns to wind pickups.

I suspect that Seymour has enough experience to shorten the learning process.

But then again, if it is sheerly for marketing... like say, a solid gold guitar, or having more inlay than wood on an acoustic (like some of the trade show Martins) then whatever. JGundry is right, though I'd never do it myself.

I wonder if it started as a cynical thought, but pride of craftsmanship took over in the development process. It became an "interesting challenge".

In practical terms, $1200 is a ridiculous price for a new pickup, and only the well-heeled and delusional will buy it. Why else would you sell one?

[Mark Hammer]

See, now here is a circumstance where BBSailor's intriguing experiments with coils using few turns might prove useful, or cost effective. On the other hand, is turning to silver wire something that really only shows benefit if there are lots of turns to begin with?

[Mike Sulzer]

See, now here is a circumstance where BBSailor's intriguing experiments with coils using few turns might prove useful, or cost effective. On the other hand, is turning to silver wire something that really only shows benefit if there are lots of turns to begin with?

Benefits? Have any been established?

Fewer turns, larger wire, so maybe the same mass of metal.

[salvarsan]

Silver has a conductivity about 7.5% higher than copper.

I've seen figures change a bit in the last decade. I believe that it started at ~4% and has crept upward with every purification improvement.
4% is probably what can be expected from ordinary silver.

Here is a thought experiment: Measure the diameter of a piece of their silver wire, both with and without the insulation.

Now make some copper wire that is 1.0368 times greater in diameter than their silver wire (without the insulation); it will have the same conductivity as theirs since the surface area will be 1.075 times greater.

This is the difference between #42 and #41.5 gauges.

[Mark Hammer]

fair point.

Bopping around, I stumbled onto this nugget from a decade ago on this very forum: Re: Opinions on using solid silver wire for guitar wiring - AMPAGE Archive