Seymour's new cryo-silver pickup

[Mike Sulzer]

I've seen figures change a bit in the last decade. I believe that it started at ~4% and has crept upward with every purification improvement.
4% is probably what can be expected from ordinary silver.

This is the difference between #42 and #41.5 gauges.

These numbers are from here http://environmentalchemistry.com/yo...ectrical.html:

0.596e6 cm-ohms Copper
0.63e6 cm-ohms Silver

I just took the ratio and subtracted one. But I copied it wrong; it should be 5.7%, which I think is the number given in the SD ad. So you only need to make the copper wire 2.8% bigger in diameter! Not much change. But I assume that the 5.7% is for very pure silver. With ordinary silver that gets 4% better as you said, then we only need to make the copper wire 2% bigger in diameter. This is getting down in the noise.

[David King]

Is any of our magnet wire "Oxygen free" aka "ofc"? Isn't that a measurably better conductor than regular copper?

Wikipedia claims Ultra-pure copper has a conductivity of 58.65 MS/m on it's OFC page.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I don't doubt that Seymour knows more about pickup winding than the average cat, but when you throw a whole new material into the mix you can't expect ANYONE to know how to fully exploit its possibilities without experimenting. It isn't as though every new Duncan pickup that is made never had a reject in the prototype process... if each model they issue is a "first try" then way to go... but I doubt it. And that is with humbucker and single coil models using all known components.

I see there is more to the coil than the wire, but you could do the cryogenic treatments and everything else without the silver and be much cheaper from the way this thread is reading. So, I think that deserves the most attention.

And, why is the silver wire so expensive? Is it harder to work with? I'm not sure what the raw pricing is for silver versus copper, but it doesn't seem proportional.

[bbsailor]

Mark and others

Think about the copper area of 5000 turns of AWG 42 as it relates to the current transformer (CT) primary loop impedance in milliohms or even fractions of milliohms, micro ohms. AWG 42 has an area of 6.25 circular mils times 5000 turns equals 31,250 circular mils or near AWG 5 with 33087.61 circular mils. When looking at reflected impedance with a 500 turns ratio CT you are looking at a 250,000 impedance transformation which puts the primary string loop at a very low resistance to reflect a microphone level impedance to drive an XLR microphone input with a response minus the L/C interactions in the mid audio frequencies of high Z pickups.

This just give you another way to listen to the interaction between coils, magnets, wire and vibrating strings.

Joseph Rogowski

[salvarsan]

I don't doubt that Seymour knows more about pickup winding than the average cat, but when you throw a whole new material into the mix you can't expect ANYONE to know how to fully exploit its possibilities without experimenting. It isn't as though every new Duncan pickup that is made never had a reject in the prototype process... if each model they issue is a "first try" then way to go... but I doubt it. And that is with humbucker and single coil models using all known components.

Dude.

You need to relax.

Nothing springs forth in perfect form.
In the case of SD's silver zephyrs, they only need to sound different and good enough.

I see there is more to the coil than the wire, but you could do the cryogenic treatments and everything else without the silver and be much cheaper from the way this thread is reading. So, I think that deserves the most attention.

Callaham has done this with strat pickups.

And, why is the silver wire so expensive? Is it harder to work with? I'm not sure what the raw pricing is for silver versus copper, but it doesn't seem proportional.

Every purchase of silver magnet wire is a special order with a ~$1500 setup charge combined with ~$400+/lb for the silver. If you're serious, you buy 5 lbs minimum and say bye to $3500.

Silver's greater density means you get 85% the length of an equivalent weight of copper wire. If you get 20 PAF coils per pound of #42 copper, then that's 17 coils per pound of #42 silver wire.

The winding tension should be about 20% less to avoid breakage, if you look at the tensile strengths of silver vs. copper.

[frankfalbo]

$1200 is for the set, and it's retail price. Expect them to be about $1000 on the street, translate to $500 per humbucker, and its pretty reasonable, considering all the hand fabrication processes involved.

Otherwise great discussion, carry on!

[salvarsan]

$1200 is for the set, and it's retail price. Expect them to be about $1000 on the street, translate to $500 per humbucker, and its pretty reasonable, considering all the hand fabrication processes involved.

Thanks for the clarification, Frank. I missed those crucial points.

The wire alone is $50 per pickup.
Seymour decided, for reasons I don't understand yet,
to use nickel slugs clad with 440C solenoid core stainless steel.
This saturates at low field unlike low carbon steel. He could just
as easily have used Cartech HyMu-80.

Cryo treatment is billed by time and weight.
I suspect that Seymour only does small pickup volumes for the moment.

So, for now, SD Zephyr pickups are understandably expensive
from scarcity, uniqueness, and hand production (if that isn't redundant).

[Mike Sulzer]

$1200 is for the set, and it's retail price. Expect them to be about $1000 on the street, translate to $500 per humbucker, and its pretty reasonable, considering all the hand fabrication processes involved.

Otherwise great discussion, carry on!

Let's not forget the cost of the extra publicity associated with introducing a new product. And then there is all that research that went into justifying every word in that product announcement.

Sometime when you have a free moment, try putting a 500 ohm resistor in series with your 10K pickup and notice how much worse the sound gets.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Dude.

You need to relax.

I'm perfectly relaxed... just making a point. Why do you think I'm flipping out?

[Dave Kerr]

ZEPHYR™ SERIES Introducing Seymour Duncan Zephyr, a continuing series focused on defining what's next for guitar.

So, this is the first of several/many in a new product line - any guesses on what's next? Frank, any hints?

[salvarsan]

I'm perfectly relaxed... just making a point. Why do you think I'm flipping out?

Because you didn't think it through.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Because you didn't think it through.

Wow. Just... wow.

[David Schwab]

If you have the most expensive, custom product on the market if gives you a certain cred. among some.

That's nothing compared to...

Most Expensive Bass Guitar | LUXUO Luxury Blog

$250,000.00.

Suddenly Alembics seem affordable.

[David Schwab]

Everyone here knows that learning how to get a good sounding pickup means having lots of fuzzy clumps of wire in the trash can.

No, that's just from learning winding technique.

I can honestly say first set of pickups sounded great, and for each model I make, I pretty much have made them exactly like the first prototypes. Maybe I got through three iterations for tweaking sake. But I have also made some sets I didn't care for, but that's because I was trying new things. But you take notes and get a feel for what to expect from changing a parameter. I like to follow hunches.

I think it's great that Seymour is trying new things. Between him and Kevin Beller you have a lot of pickup making know-how.

[David Schwab]

And, why is the silver wire so expensive? Is it harder to work with? I'm not sure what the raw pricing is for silver versus copper, but it doesn't seem proportional.

You're joking, right? Isn't silver more expensive than copper? If it wasn't, everyone would wear copper jewelry!

When you buy copper magnet wire, for the most part it's based on the price of copper per pound, plus processing. It changes on a regular basis. The last I heard copper magnet wire was about $18/pound. Currently raw copper is $4.30/Lb. Silver is $28.95/lb. So figure the cost of that as magnet wire.