Seymour's new cryo-silver pickup

[salvarsan]

But Duncan doesn't have to document anything for the public. Neither does DiMarzio or Bill Lawrence. That's proprietary R&D.

David, I think that this needs elaboration.

In a crowded and competitive industry, R&D folks are under a legally binding non-disclosure agreement. Specifically, if Frank Falbo mentions technical details on this forum, it is with SD's explicit knowledge and confidence that he won't reveal information crucial to production. It is as much a reflection on Seymour Duncan as it is on Frank.

In blunt words, Frank owes us nothing.

Conversely, it's great that he's here at all.

It would be interesting to know if Steve Blucher of DiMarzio ever lurks here.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

OK, define "significant progress" when it comes to pickups. I'd guess that means making a "better" pickup. So then define what a better pickup is.

I'm all for scientific method. But I do get bothered when some scientist think we understand everything around us, because we don't. We learn new things all the time. And that's a good thing. Even old discarded concepts like the aether are showing there might have been something to it with recent experiments.

Pickups aren't that hard though. For example I don't own a LCR meter. It would be handy to know the inductance of a pickup I'm working on, but it hasn't prevented me from making pickups I like. I do find my gauss meter very handy. But before I built that I used a "pull test" to compare pickups. After a dozen or so pickups you get a feel for what to change to get the tone you want.

I'd disagree on certain points, but I think David has hit on one of the biggest problems of how these threads play out. People take technical data, they pick one or two parameters that they find interesting, and they just run with it. There was a time when all anyone cared about was DCR, and we understand here that DCR is next to meaningless. Just because someone uses a different metric - frequency plots, gauss, inductance, Q, whatever... doesn't make it any more sensible.

Look around online and you'll find enough people who will say that since electric guitar pickups can only "sense" things that are magnetically permeable, the tonewoods make absolutely no difference. But, we listen and understand that an alder strat sounds different from an ash one. This is what happens when you over think and under play.

(this isn't directed at you David, I'm just running with a theme)

[Mike Sulzer]

From our conversations here I can say that Mike doesn't feel that oddly shaped pole pieces matter, or that the flux is coming from the pole peices, and instead they merely magnetize the strings.

You are referring to discussions of Bartolini's patent. His pole pieces do not do what he thinks.

Flux from the permanent magnet passes through the pole pieces and magnetizes the strings. Time varying flux from the vibrating strings passes through the pole pieces and thus through the coil, inducing a voltage around the coil.

What other function for the flux from permanent magnet did you have in mind?

[salvarsan]

a quick point --

Martensitic alloys are many, but type 400 Stainless Steels are prominent.
Cryogenic treatment changes the magnetic permeability of Martensitic alloys.
When the magnetic permeability changes in a pickup design, its inductance changes and with it, its sound.

Any alloy with a marginally heterogeneous crystalline structure changes from cryo treatment. That includes Alnico.

This means that cryogenic treatment will incrementally change the sound of a guitar pickup if it has alnico and/or a soft magnetic alloy such as steel or 440 stainless.

Whether or not the change is desirable or practical ($$$) is up to the builder.

Search on "cryogenic treatment, magnetic permeability" to confirm that this has been studied and confirmed in the laboratory.

[Mike Sulzer]

a quick point --

Martensitic alloys are many, but type 400 Stainless Steels are prominent.
Cryogenic treatment changes the magnetic permeability of Martensitic alloys.
When the magnetic permeability changes in a pickup design, its inductance changes and with it, its sound.

Any alloy with a marginally heterogeneous crystalline structure changes from cryo treatment. That includes Alnico.

This means that cryogenic treatment will incrementally change the sound of a guitar pickup if it has alnico and/or a soft magnetic alloy such as steel or 440 stainless.

Whether or not the change is desirable or practical ($$$) is up to the builder.

Search on "cryogenic treatment, magnetic permeability" to confirm that this has been studied and confirmed in the laboratory.

Would you point out which of the many papers listed in those search results discusses the change in permeability of the stainless steel with cryo? Thanks, Mike.

[David Schwab]

David, I think that this needs elaboration.

In a crowded and competitive industry, R&D folks are under a legally binding non-disclosure agreement. Specifically, if Frank Falbo mentions technical details on this forum, it is with SD's explicit knowledge and confidence that he won't reveal information crucial to production. It is as much a reflection on Seymour Duncan as it is on Frank.

In blunt words, Frank owes us nothing.

Conversely, it's great that he's here at all.

It would be interesting to know if Steve Blucher of DiMarzio ever lurks here.

I agree. We are fortunate to have a lot of talented people here, both well known and semi obscure.

[David Schwab]

You are referring to discussions of Bartolini's patent. His pole pieces do not do what he thinks.

That's correct. Back in those discussions I also pointed out a few other designs where they are attempting to shape the field under the strings. Lace and Adder/APC (another Lace brother) are two more examples. All these designs sound different for what ever reason. Barts design might not have been doing what he said, but it was doing something that was noticeable, and did achieve an acoustic type tone.

Flux from the permanent magnet passes through the pole pieces and magnetizes the strings. Time varying flux from the vibrating strings passes through the pole pieces and thus through the coil, inducing a voltage around the coil.

What other function for the flux from permanent magnet did you have in mind?

Nothing in particular, but you will notice that different shaped poles often sound different, such as comparing a Strat pickup with one that uses a blade magnet. Is it the amount of pole piece mass that has changed, or the shape of the field under the strings?

[David Schwab]

I'd disagree on certain points, but I think David has hit on one of the biggest problems of how these threads play out. People take technical data, they pick one or two parameters that they find interesting, and they just run with it. There was a time when all anyone cared about was DCR, and we understand here that DCR is next to meaningless. Just because someone uses a different metric - frequency plots, gauss, inductance, Q, whatever... doesn't make it any more sensible.

DC resistance is not meaningless when the other factors on the pickup have not changed. I take DC resistance readings all the time to make sure I'm on target with a coil, and when doing prototypes, it might tell me how much more or less wire I want to wind, but I do that by turns count. Once I know how many turns and what the resistance is at that many turns, I can calculate new counts from either one. But as a design parameter, I can't see where the DC resistance is useful. Winding to a certain resistance is one of the first things you learn not to do, unless you are copying an existing pickup.

Look around online and you'll find enough people who will say that since electric guitar pickups can only "sense" things that are magnetically permeable, the tonewoods make absolutely no difference. But, we listen and understand that an alder strat sounds different from an ash one. This is what happens when you over think and under play.

The structure of the guitar makes a big difference as it affects how the strings vibrate, and partly acts as a comb filter. Even fingerboard woods sound different in my experience. The pickups take an aspect of that composite tone sampled at one small spot on the string, and then shapes it further. Then throw the player into the mix.

That gets back to Daniel's stew again.

Now we just need Frank to send us all some of those new pickups to try out.

[salvarsan]

Would you point out which of the many papers listed in those search results discusses the change in permeability of the stainless steel with cryo? Thanks, Mike.

Nope.

My life involves a fair amount of coursework + research at the moment.
From me, you get what you get.

If your question is sincere, then all I can do is point out that research has identified permeability changes in cryo-treated soft magnetic materials.

It is well-documented, as you know, that the crystalline structure of metals changes from both cryogenic and heat treating. The industry ran ahead of academic research until recently.

Within the wire industry, composition and heat treatment of wires are continuously tested and identified by permeability changes as it is spooled for the first time.

Knowing these facts, the assertion that stainless 440C magnetic permeability changes from cryogenic treatment is more than reasonable and plausible -- it is likely.

[David Schwab]

It is well-documented, as you know, that the crystalline structure of metals changes from both cryogenic and heat treating. The industry ran ahead of academic research until recently.

Both ferromagnets and neo magnets are made by first heating the material and allowing it to cool in a magnetic field. Ceramic magnets are also made using heat.

[Mike Sulzer]

Knowing these facts, the assertion that stainless 440C magnetic permeability changes from cryogenic treatment is more than reasonable and plausible -- it is likely.

OK, thanks, I guess I misread your earlier post as suggesting that it does change for sure, and I could find out a lot more about that by following the link. Not sure how much this matters, because I do not know what percentage of the pole piece is stainless; so I guess there are a lot of uncertainties here.

Nor do I see why you would want to change it with cryo if you could use some other material that did not need to change.

"We do it because it sounds better." is fine for selling pickups to guitarists, but it does not satisfy everyone.

[salvarsan]

OK, thanks, I guess I misread your earlier post as suggesting that it does change for sure, and I could find out a lot more about that by following the link. Not sure how much this matters, because I do not know what percentage of the pole piece is stainless; so I guess there are a lot of uncertainties here.

Nor do I see why you would want to change it with cryo if you could use some other material that did not need to change.

"We do it because it sounds better." is fine for selling pickups to guitarists, but it does not satisfy everyone.

Well, let's game how this can play out with you:

I say it happens.
You say it doesn't because I've presented no direct proof.
I present a reasonable argument.
You accuse me of intellectual dishonesty/fraud/sloth/whatever.

...and you do not generally provide alternative explanations.

Perhaps there is a better method of discussion, no?

[Mike Sulzer]

Well, let's game how this can play out with you:

I say it happens.
You say it doesn't because I've presented no direct proof.
I present a reasonable argument.
You accuse me of intellectual dishonesty/fraud/sloth/whatever.

...and you do not generally provide alternative explanations.

Perhaps there is a better method of discussion, no?

Actually, I had accepted your explanation that it was likely that the permeability of the stainless changes with cryo treatment on your say so, but was still a bit disappointed about not being able to find out more information easily. Sorry if that comes across as something else.

[frankfalbo]

Frank was daring enough to come here and share info on this apparently controversial pickup.

We have to assume that Seymour and co. tried different combinations, and stuck with something they liked...a lot of us would like to try new stuff, but we don't have the budget.

But Duncan doesn't have to document anything for the public. Neither does DiMarzio or Bill Lawrence. That's proprietary R&D.

David, I think that this needs elaboration. In a crowded and competitive industry, R&D folks are under a legally binding non-disclosure agreement. Specifically, if Frank Falbo mentions technical details on this forum, it is with SD's explicit knowledge and confidence that he won't reveal information crucial to production. It is as much a reflection on Seymour Duncan as it is on Frank.

This is a good point, though I am not under any contractual restrictions. If I spilled my guts I'd get fired for negligence, but not breach of contract. With the unique features of the Zephyr Silver series in particular, understand that my lack of cerebral comments, statistical cataloging, and research data is not a reflection of my capacity to comprehend, nor the existence of, hard data. If I default to a "but it sounded different/better, etc." it's not because I can't defend the accusations. Seymour Duncan produced Zephyr Silver pickups, and ours is the benefit of the fruits of our labor.

I would be doing a disservice to my company if I basically trained any and all interested parties exactly how to capitalize on our research, thus shortening their development cycle to produce competing products. Forum conversations are public and archived and searchable. We will never intentionally "cover our tracks" or send anyone on a wild goose chase, but there are things that would simply be irresponsible for me to say. If I told you about all the other pole pieces bested by the 440+nickel then I would essentially be providing a road map for others. If I told you why we didn't choose a different alloy or combination of alloys, someone else might say "but that sounds like what I want" and they'd have their recipe without any experimentation or enlightenment.
Even if I quit tomorrow to go work in construction I still would keep these things confidential out of respect for Cathy and Seymour, and what happens here in this building. It's a great place to be and everyone here deserves whatever success we're fortunate enough to be blessed with.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

DC resistance is not meaningless when the other factors on the pickup have not changed. I take DC resistance readings all the time to make sure I'm on target with a coil, and when doing prototypes, it might tell me how much more or less wire I want to wind, but I do that by turns count. Once I know how many turns and what the resistance is at that many turns, I can calculate new counts from either one. But as a design parameter, I can't see where the DC resistance is useful. Winding to a certain resistance is one of the first things you learn not to do, unless you are copying an existing pickup.



The structure of the guitar makes a big difference as it affects how the strings vibrate, and partly acts as a comb filter. Even fingerboard woods sound different in my experience. The pickups take an aspect of that composite tone sampled at one small spot on the string, and then shapes it further. Then throw the player into the mix.

That gets back to Daniel's stew again.

Now we just need Frank to send us all some of those new pickups to try out.

Well, I did say NEXT TO meaningless, not meaningless! By that I mean that in the context that it is given/used by many people to describe the "tone" of a pickup, it is best ignored.

My point on the tone woods is not to fall into the trap of overthinking... overthinking tells you woods don't matter. Practical experience tells you they DO matter. So, we're agreeing with each other but I'm not certain both of us realize that at this moment. That seems to be happening a lot in this thread.

I think I lost something along the way - are we talking about cryogenically treating the whole pickup, or just the pole pieces/metal parts involved? I'm not reading any discussion about the coil itself.