Pickup Parts quality

[Amadhunter]

Well, I surfed the net looking for a site with some good info on pu building. I'm never going to get into the "business", I've got a career. I love music, and musical instruments, with a very strong afinity to the electric guitar. The old, vintage stuff right up to the new todays guitars. Having this affection for the guitar gives my DIY side something to do. About two years ago my best friend and I were sitting on my front porch having a beer, and as usual, talking about old times in the band, and the guitars we drool over. The conversation turned into custom made guitars. I've always wanted a Fender custom shop, or a Rice, or Nash etc. But can not afford one of them, my pal (a professional bassist) suggested that we build our own. Long story short, we bought a plank of wood, and ordered a couple of USCGA necks, and hardware, then proceeded to carve out our guitar/bass. The next thing we know, we'd built 11 guitars and basses, each better than the last. We aren't building for profit, but for fun, and our love for the instruments. We have experimented with shape, different woods, finishes, and all variables we could think of then thought, wonder if we could wind our pu's to our own recipes. That's when I found this web site, hoping to find the same community spirit I'd found at guitar building sites. Sharing of ideas, suggestions etc. I did not think about the propriatary info security stuff that folks in the industry must abide by to make their living. I have nothing against it at all. I have nothing but respect, well a little envy as well for people such as Jason Loller, and other pros that post here. I relegated myself to go as far back on this forum as it goes, and have read every page here, there are some great people posting here, and some (a very small %) folks that are real jerky/touchy about new folks asking questions. Why, if you are so good at what you do in your well established business are you so afraid of a guy with a winder sitting in his garage winding pu's from kits? I mean to the point of being an a## about it. I never intend to do any more damage, or become any more of a loss of sales to you guys than the small number of pu's I don't buy from you. These are the reasons I don't post, I don't want to get slammed for infringing on some unwritten code of pu builders. I do have some of the fine quality products from "boutique" pu makers, such as Lollar, Lindy Fralin, Peter F., etc. I love em all for different reasons, but in the end, I wanted a guitar that I build entirely from scratch to play through my home made amp, and leave to my sons when I go.
Sorry for the hijack. No disrespect intended, and thank you all for the information you have shared.

[WolfeMacleod]

And to Big Tee, I wouldn't expect to find much in the way of information here, and nor should you expect it. The pickup market has grown quite abit over the last few years - and as a casual visitor here, I can name about 10 people who first came here with no clue and alot of questions, and now sell pickups on the open market. I'm all for a free market, but when you give away info for free you will undoubtedly create competition that was born of your own hard-work and research. You'll notice the effects of this by the infrequent in-depth posts in this forum by established, respected makers - they have seen too frequently there ideas and advice start up new levels of competition. I was always suprised by the free flow of info here, and am not suprised it is guarded here now. There is no free lunch - and there really shouldn't be!

An old friend, economics professor from another lifetime, spoke well of capitalism, which I love, succinctly - "Teach a man to fish, and he'll eventually cut your throat".... fwiw

I have a comment about your comment.
It is because of our advice and help that the market has become extremely over-saturated with mases of winders working off our knowledge an the help Jason and I gave them. Some here may remember that this forum was started because of Jason and myself several year ago. Eventually, it was moved over here.
I have helped many people get started. I have also ben stabbed in the back by many of them, in one form or another. - to point at your last statement.

Most of the reason I have been gone for... how long?

[Manlius]

I have a comment about your comment.
It is because of our advice and help that the market has become extremely over-saturated with mases of winders working off our knowledge an the help Jason and I gave them. Some here may remember that this forum was started because of Jason and myself several year ago. Eventually, it was moved over here.
I have helped many people get started. I have also ben stabbed in the back by many of them, in one form or another. - to point at your last statement.

Most of the reason I have been gone for... how long?

My point exactly, the free flow of information had to stop at some point, and if others think it is 'mean-spirited', then too bad. You can go back through the archives of this forum and figure out how to build anything, and pretty much any place to buy the stuff you need. It is a great resource, but if you look at the pickup game as a business, sharing all your info really isn't the most wise endeavor to grow your own business...

[StarryNight]

I think it will all even out eventually. Right now there is a large amount of people out there calling ourselves pickup winders but the reality is winding pickups and running a successful business are two completely different activities. You can hand a guy a Super 400 but that doesn't mean he knows how to play jazz. All this information is highly addictive I'm sure everyone would agree, but the real secret to winding pickups as a business is not something a forum can teach (at least not this one ). 80% of small business close within the first year. For better or worse running a successful pickup-making business in this age means factoring in the loss of sales due to the the steady ebb and flow of people trying to be pickup makers (this is now the norm in the information age for any business). If you consider this forum to be a yardstick to measure how many people are serious about making pickups I would say it is quite small world wide. To boot, most of the members here are not in it as an exclusive capital venture. Many are are luthiers just wanting to make propriatary pickups, some are repair people, some are kids wanting to get their hands dirty. Jason L is bang on with his business ideas by putting a book out. That's the kind of thinking that keeps one alive in business. Robert Benedetto is another example. He puts out videos and books to make your very own archtop guitar step by step. Yes it creates a gluttony of archtop luthiers but I don't think he's worried about loosing business.

[Amadhunter]

Well said. I bought Jason L.'s book, very informative, and entertaining. I would like to have that Benedetto book, probably will never build an archtop, but I would like to read it.

[salvarsan]

Wolfe points out that the pickup market is saturated.

In other words, guitar pickups are a commodity and the sales margins are relatively small compared to other markets.

When the margins/benefits shrink, the competition becomes more fierce, not through any malice, but for survival.

[StarryNight]

Wolfe points out that the pickup market is saturated.

In other words, guitar pickups are a commodity and the sales margins are relatively small compared to other markets.

When the margins/benefits shrink, the competition becomes more fierce, not through any malice, but for survival.

Isn't it obvious that the sales margins for after market pickup is MASSIVELY wide? We have mega-companies pumping out 10s of thousands of pickups per month in the same market as guys making 2/month. So by that lens it would seem malice is the driving force to competition

[kevinT]

I have observed that the pedal market is even more saturated than the pickup market but they all seem to stay in business. Take a look at all the ads in Premier Guitar. They even have issues focusing on pedals.

The bottom line is find you're unique selling proposition. Make a good product and treat folks well. I do many many free mods for my customers it's not funny. Even on pickups purchased over 2 years ago. I hate to do it becuase it eats up production time.....but I think it helps build brand loyalty and a good reputation.

Back to the original question....the bottom line, there are some good parts and bad parts and you have to find what works for you. Parts that don't work, ...get custom made....

I my book, finding quality covers is a nightmare.

A laser is most helpful too and on my to buy list. ;-)

[salvarsan]

Isn't it obvious that the sales margins for after market pickup is MASSIVELY wide?

Depends on what the profit has to pay for. Do the profits help sustain a factory space, or a workshop? Is the workshop attached to or separate from a dwelling?

We have mega-companies pumping out 10s of thousands of pickups per month in the same market as guys making 2/month. So by that lens it would seem malice is the driving force to competition

Waa-aall, I wouldn't wanna compare the big guys to the boutique market too much. In truth, I doubt that they give the boutique makers much thought, if ever. Frankly, getting the attention of a corporate entity within a system defined by predatory late-stage capitalism sounds like a bad idea.

The difference between malice and business is often one of perspective.

[peskywinnets]

Isn't it obvious that the sales margins for after market pickup is MASSIVELY wide? We have mega-companies pumping out 10s of thousands of pickups per month in the same market as guys making 2/month. So by that lens it would seem malice is the driving force to competition

Apparently the profits are fairly chunky for the small guy's pickups too....you've just got to have a bit of mystery about the brand ;-)

[StarryNight]

salvarsan, I believe net profits more accurately measures a company's internal performance. To really see the scale of a company's value within the market the gross earnings are a better indicator - or units sold. Do we put them all in the same product profile? well, some might split hairs but geez, it looks like the same product to me! Even this forum has everyone here from the big companies to the small fries. It's pretty cool actually. I'd love to do a graph on 20 pickup companies and number of google hits and see how they measure against each other (short of having everyone's gross earnings ).

[David Schwab]

As much as I would love to have a garage full of tools with which to experiment on different designs, or a thriving pickup business that funds my R&D like some of you do, I can't have it because I can't just will it all into existence. I just want to be able to make a good pickup for my local customers and do the best with what I have. By the way, I live in a 1 bedroom apartment with my wife, so i don't even have a table saw to experiment on different designs, etc, blah, blah.

I live in a two bedroom apartment with a wife and two kids. I actually do a lot of my work in the corner of the kitchen. That's where my winder is set up. I have a mini table saw I use for cutting plastic, as well as the usual assortment of hand tools. I have a few bench top machines in our storage area in the basement. I've made over 200 pickups in my kitchen. It's often inconvenient, but not impossible. I obviously have a very understanding wife.

But if you don't need custom parts, then there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. I'd love to find premade bobbins I could use, but I haven't found any that match what I'm doing. I do use some dual rail strat pickup bobbins which I modify for other uses.

[Ronsonic]

This turned out to be a typical thread on the Pickup Winders Site.
Someone got on here wanting help and advise, about winding and best place to buy parts.
It didn't take long before some of the experienced winders started to attack the newer winders.
This is the only portion of the music-electronics-forum, that does this.
On the Amplification sites, all the real techs are trying to share and help the newer guys with their amp builds.

This introduces a couple of different issues. You do see a similar dynamic over in the effects pedal building world. Over there it happens when you get new guys asking questions and getting help and then you see ads for new products that you apparently have helped design. Some guys stop getting answers and some types of questions don't get answered anymore.

This forum is generally excellent at providing answers. There isn't an existing important design that isn't either clearly described or at least has a train of bread crumbs leading to it. These folks have been admirably open about what they do and how they do it. Even the most proprietary stuff is described well enough to see how the original builder arrived there.

This thread went off on a tangent a bit. I don't think encouragement to get off the well trod path is out of order or all that critical. And the tangential grumbling about a world overrun with new booteek builders with enhanced mojo sauce may be unhelpful but shouldn't be seen as an attack. Consider it insight into where the craft leads.

As for myself, I build nearly squat. But, I'm working on designs that aren't variations on the same thing. They fit in standard package sizes, but that's just practical to keep things humbucker, P90, strat, or tele sized.

[big_teee]

This introduces a couple of different issues. You do see a similar dynamic over in the effects pedal building world. Over there it happens when you get new guys asking questions and getting help and then you see ads for new products that you apparently have helped design. Some guys stop getting answers and some types of questions don't get answered anymore.

This forum is generally excellent at providing answers. There isn't an existing important design that isn't either clearly described or at least has a train of bread crumbs leading to it. These folks have been admirably open about what they do and how they do it. Even the most proprietary stuff is described well enough to see how the original builder arrived there.

This thread went off on a tangent a bit. I don't think encouragement to get off the well trod path is out of order or all that critical. And the tangential grumbling about a world overrun with new booteek builders with enhanced mojo sauce may be unhelpful but shouldn't be seen as an attack. Consider it insight into where the craft leads.

As for myself, I build nearly squat. But, I'm working on designs that aren't variations on the same thing. They fit in standard package sizes, but that's just practical to keep things humbucker, P90, strat, or tele sized.

I appreciate your comment Ronsonic.
It's not the sharing of information per say.
I just think that as long as this is an open forum where all can join, we should at least be curteous to all, and not be-little the new-comer or hobbiest.
Whether you share your info is up to you the individual.
This forum should be open on all levels without the mud slinging that goes on, very frequently.
Anything that most people want to learn bad enough, they will learn whether you help them or not.
With the internet age, information is everywhere.
Stew Mac is probably the most guilty.
Not only do they sell winders, they sell kits, and give out free information on how to build pretty decent pickups.
I know this is strictly my opinion, but basic Passive Pickup Building is Not Rocket Science!
Later,
Rock On!
Terry

[David Schwab]

This turned out to be a typical thread on the Pickup Winders Site.
Someone got on here wanting help and advise, about winding and best place to buy parts.

That's not really what happened at all. Read the first two posts. He said:

Just wondering if there is a big difference in quality among pickup parts from company to company.

I said:

The parts all seem of equal quality, and many come from the same factories. But they are sometimes a little different in their construction. So you pick the ones you like best.

That answered the question.

What followed was an interesting and lively conversation, and that's what makes this place great!