Pickup Parts quality

[John Carlsen]

we also have to remember that the pickup is a very small part of the overall sound. I've played a stock squier affinity strat through and AC30 and gotten compliments on my sound. Would it have sounded better with my guitar and my pickups? Of course, but so much is in the fingers and the rest of the signal chain as well. To be perfectly honest, Rob Chapman can make anything sound good! Let's keep in mind also, that while it is possible to wind a better sounding pickup than the gibson stuff your first time, you also have to take into account the fact that the person who just wound it is very excited, so that may be projected on what he hears as well. We all have our different facets we bring to the great tone quest.

[big_teee]

At the risk on getting flamed on such a forum - is it really art? There are two methods of winding - CNC (reproducable) & handwound (not reproducable), as unfashionable as it to say on such a forum, I find it hard to believe that handwound can beat machine wound for consistent results.

I read a thread on here the other day...someone had wound his first pickup - to his ears it was better than his stock Gibson wound pickup. Now call me a cynic, but Gibson are in the market to sell guitars...and selling a guitars means it has to sound good (ok a lot of it is branding/marketing too), so let's recap....

A bloke who cobbled some stock parts together to wind his first pickup vs a gargantuan guitar manafacturer who's been in the business donkeys years - really, whose pickup is going to likely sound the best?

Are we saying that buying some stock pickup kit from Stewmac & winding a pickup by hand trumps CNC wound everytime?!

I've just bought an ML1 guitar (an internet collobratively designed guitar ...watch the video story here YouTube - Chapman Guitars The Movie (The ML1 Story) ] ), the seller goes out his way to say he's fitted the cheapest chinese pickups he could find (he put the majority of the manafacturing expenditure into a quality wood & hardware) - the expectation is that the buyer will swap them out for his own pickups of choice. Do you know what - They sound very good to my ears (I own other very high quality guitars), have a listen YouTube - Chapman Guitars ML1 overview and demo

Well does one pickup have to be better than another?
That's why I started winding.
I was spending money and I felt like I was not getting the tone I was paying for.
I think most of us meet or beat the mass produced pickups, or we wouldn't have many customers.
From my first patched together pickup, they were as good or better than most I had bought.
As far as the CnC vs. Hand wound, (Here we go again).
We do what we can afford, and we do with what we have.
All of my hand wounds sound good to me, now are they all exactly alike?
No, but that doesn't mean they are bad either.
Back to the original topic.
I purchase from Mojo and Guitar Parts USA Mostly.
I get humbucker tape and a few other things from StewMac.
I buy my wire from MWS In California.
Stewmac, is too high on most things, if I can get it elsewhere, I usually do!
I'm a hobby winder, so I don't order direct from China, or CNC my own parts.
I just use what is mainly available, or what I can easily make.
I don't buy pre-assembled single coils. I like my rod magnets beveled, and I lightly bevel both ends. It makes the flatwork fit much tighter. So I buy the magnets loose, and the flatwork pre-cut. You still have to clean and get rid of all the sharp edges, and assemble the flatwork. So there is still plenty to do, without manufacturing all the parts yourself.
Later,
Terry

[Danelectron]

I read a thread on here the other day...someone had wound his first pickup - to his ears it was better than his stock Gibson wound pickup. Now call me a cynic, but Gibson are in the market to sell guitars...and selling a guitars means it has to sound good (ok a lot of it is branding/marketing too), so let's recap....

A bloke who cobbled some stock parts together to wind his first pickup vs a gargantuan guitar manafacturer who's been in the business donkeys years - really, whose pickup is going to likely sound the best?

Peskywinnets, That would be me. I'm not attemting to outdo Gibson or anyone else. I believe Gibson is far more professional and experienced at what they do. And without a doubt more consistant. I have owned 4 gibsons and several strats and some others so I know what sound I like. What's a kit got to do with it? I bought a bunch of wire and some magnets, bobbins and such and have wound 7 more pickups the same as if it were a Stewmac kit. The end result is I have 4 more humbuckers that I also like more than the stock ones and they went together better than the first. I didn't make those statements to hurt anyones feelings or corner the market. I was just kind of pleased at the outcome. I guess I got lucky not having the Grand Winder Wizard show up with the mojo joo joo. Sorry if I'm out of line here. I do have to say that I have a greater respect after having wound these pickups for the ones who know what they are doing. You will never see my booth at NAMM or anywhere else. Oh, the other 3 are single coils, and if they sound better than stock Fender I will keep it to myself.

[jason lollar]

I am kind of with Rick T on this one- its a pickup makers forum not pickup winders, you dont need a laser cutter, if youve seen my book i made several thousand pickups as described in it with forbon a table saw and router and drill press- thats the way you had to do it not that long ago.
"There comes a point when you have to realize that the winding itself is the art" Yeah but I probably thought that 20 years ago and since then probably 10 years ago + I realised there is alot more to it than how the coil is wound. Then there is the secret undiscoverd winding pattern no one else in the world has figured out that kicks every other pickup to the curb that we hear about on occasion- that is in your mind. years later it will be like when you take a dose of LSD and everything makes perfect sense at the time but you come down and cant remember any of the details that were so crystal clear
Its not as much about the winding as it is about the combination of winding, materials and even varying the design slightly- ever made a strat pickup with a slightly shorter or taller coil? You can hear and measure quite a difference with a coil 1/16" taller or shorter.


"That would be like saying that Music Man using pickups and tuners from different companies discredits them from being able to claim that the guitar really is custom or their exclusive model." I dont agree, music man knows what they are doing- no doubt they have made guitars from the ground up countless times- they are not newbies.
"If we are going to go that far, then we should be making our own magnet wire or hookup wire too! I would guess that people usually buy these from companies pre made, pre spooled and packaged neatly..."
Actually some of us have our coil wire made to our specs and I have had all my hook up wire made for me for years- its not a stock item, What rick is saying is why not make your own parts and do some real experimenting- I make all sorts of stuff you wont see on my website and its taught me so much you wouldnt believe it. some things are not cost effective for me to make in shop but when I do outsource parts what I do get made is made to my specs and its most often made in the USA. I use to make all my parts by hand like tele bridge reflector plates- I cut a couple thousand out by hand with tin snips and a grinder back before you could easily buy the correct parts and it wasnt that long ago.
There are so many new guys making pickups from shelf bought parts, whats going to distinguish you from the other 400 guys? For the last 6 years every month I see a new ad for someone and youll see it for a moth or three and then they are gone replaced by the next guy- its going to be really hard to establish yourself- with some the claims keep getting taller about the mojo and secret sauce but its really about doing the work and not limiting yourself. Nothing wrong with making strat, tele and humcbuckers but why not try making your own parts?
The original topic alright- its BAD to rely on one source......How many times over the years have we all been screwed when that source didnt order enough parts and we had to wait 30 to 180 days to get them back in stock????? Raise your hand. uh huh

[big_teee]

I am kind of with Rick T on this one- its a pickup makers forum not pickup winders,

Where is the Pickup winders forum, I guess that's where about 85-90% of us need to move to?
Ham radio was the same way in the beginning. You used to have to build your own gear to get on the air. Everyone now buys ready made gear, but they are still ham radio operators, if they key the microphone.
Pickup builders (winders), are going to be a dime a dozen, you might as well get used to it. That's my $.02 !!!
later,
Terry

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

To be fair, in my original rant I wasn't complaining about people who buy the FLATWORK premade, but people who build stuff from kits. If all you're doing is the flatwork... I think that is perhaps a bit different.

I am most impressed by pickup makers on this board when I hear someone talk about how they tried seven different brands of alnico 5, this one is inconsistent, brand 2 is really buying it from brand 4, this one sounds darker and might actually be alnico 3, etc. etc. etc.... If you build from a kit then you're letting mojo or stew mac do all of that leg work for you. That bit of research I think is a BIGGER part of pickup making than the winding. In my own experience, (take it for what you will) the things affecting pickup sound are first the form factor (p-90 vs. strat vs. humbucker, etc), then the quality/grade/type of materials, and then third is the winding. I'm not saying winding isn't important, but honestly you won't affect the tone of the pickup as much by changing your "scatter" as you will by substituting materials. With kits you are taking those first two choices and just doing what someone else has already figured out - it doesn't make for a very good unique selling proposition. But, it is still a heck of a lot of fun! The range of personal commitment to the craft runs the gambit on this board. For the hobbyist, you don't need to stand out from the crowd - you just need to make something decent, be proud of it, and have fun/learn something while doing it. But, the market definitely is becoming over saturated with people assembling kits and selling them. Look what is happening to the small builder stomp box world...

StarryNight - I'm impressed with that bass builder too! I've been saying for years that guitar makers these days are really just playing Mr. Potato Head with guitar designs. That this guy has proprietary hardware makes him worth a second look in my book.

[copperheadroads]

Its definitely a good feeling when you build pickups from scratch ,i made a bunch of singles & humbucker bobbins from black forbon
but spent a Saturday morning making making flat-work from forbon .its not worth it. if you can get exactly what you need from a supplier for cheap .
I only use it for custom stuff
Most of my customers dont care about that & dont even ask

[Rick Turner]

Re Gibson buying their bobbins...well, no, they don't have in house injection molding, but they damned well have paid a tool and die maker to make custom bobbins just for Gibson, and for many years, they were the only game in town for humbucker bobbins. I know that Jason has all proprietary parts, so does Seymour.

As for most of my stuff...I'm winding on custom made magnets using bobbin flanges made out of Formica. I either direct cast in silicon rubber molds, a technique I probably "invented" in 1970 ( I sure didn't know anyone doing that) or I use plastic humbucker potting shells, and epoxy cast my coils into them. I make pickups; I don't assemble kits. When I was making my Rickenbacker horseshoe pickups, every bit was custom made for me, and I may have been a very early adopter of laser cut bobbins, but I farmed it out. I love the freedom of creating pickups that are unlike what others make. I want a true signature sound, and I design my pickups to complement what my instruments are. To me, designing pickups for electric guitars is kind of like designing and tuning bracing for an acoustic guitar top.

[Rick Turner]

And I don't buy acoustic guitar kits, either!

[JoshG]

I'm new here, but I've been doing this for years. I taught myself how to build pickups without the aid of the parts manufacturers/distributors, 'net forums, or asking anyone else for insight or assistance. Trial and error, all the way. I don't have a degree in electronics (philosophy major/art minor), nor did I buy Jasons book or anyone elses book when I was figuring it out - because I had no idea that stuff was out there and because the punk rock credo of DIY is something I believed in (and still do!). I've cut hundreds of sheets of Forbon, drilled hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of holes, wasted pounds and pounds of wire, tried all the magnets, bought new and used pickups just to tear them down in an effort to find out what makes 'em do what they do, have repaired, rebuilt, and rewound hundreds of pickups for friends, family, fellow musicians, customers...it's been an incredible journey! And in no way do I feel like I've crossed the finish line.

Teaching myself and learning the hard way about the "how" and "why" - making every possible mistake known to mankind - creating new mistakes never before conceived of...that's how I've learned. And there's some serious value in that.

But!

We all do this because we love it and because it's a blast right? Go ahead and buy your prefab bobbins and spin 'em up if you like- you certainly wouldn't be the first! Yes, plenty of the "boutique" pickup makers buy 'em prefab'd too even though they won't say so. You know who you are. And my guess is that, eventually, you'll get curious/adventurous/stupid/daring enough to try building your own bobbins "from scratch"...really, it's not that hard. Whatever keeps you interested and having a good time - that's all it needs to be. This isn't rocket science. If I can do it (i mean really!), so can you.

But to get to the point of the OP: I'd take Mojo over StewMac any day. I like wire from MWS and Elektrisola.

[StarryNight]

I consider assembling and winding pickups as a stepping stone into more creative pickup making - that's probably the biggest advantage. When I started I lacked the confidence to build from scratch, thinking it would be too difficult. Now I've got all sorts of crazy ideas for pickups (sometimes I don't even use bobbins)! And I enjoy the design aspect even more than anything else. It really is something to see many of the builders on this forum creating original designs - hats off to you! Even though I respect the vintage reproduction winders with all the R&D that goes into it, there are so many secrets that are kept the impression I get is almost one of slight paranoia (sometimes I call the Gollum syndrome). There's an implication of alchemy which only serves to confuse consumers (and winders). Innovative artistic design inspired more original design. At least that's what happens to me when I read posts here and see other designs generally.

what's missing these days is a culture of new design. I sense that cultural connection with the vintage crowd as there is a shared understanding of what sounds "good" vis a vis recordings and perhaps even patents or schematics. But I don't know if there is as much encouragement for new creative thought. Homogenity has such a powerful grip on many people today that it's kind of taboo to break out and think of something new on your own. Or maybe I'm just getting crotchetty. Definately this forum is the exception to the rule.

[JGundry]

Everything I put in a pickup is USA made to my specs.. dies for base plates, bobbins, covers, cold headers made to spec. for screws.... In the end it comes down to getting exactly what you want and actually knowing who is making the part for you. It really is the best way to control the quality. This holds true whether you are dealing with a entirely new pickup design or if you are making one of the classic designs.

[JoshG]

Starry, this bit: the "implication of alchemy"...

Psychological marketing games. I'm so tired of that sh!t. Sorry...that's a whole 'nuther thread!

[WolfeMacleod]

I use to make all my parts by hand like tele bridge reflector plates- I cut a couple thousand out by hand with tin snips and a grinder back before you could easily buy the correct parts and it wasnt that long ago.......
........There are so many new guys making pickups from shelf bought parts, whats going to distinguish you from the other 400 guys? ....... with some the claims keep getting taller about the mojo and secret sauce but its really about doing the work and not limiting yourself. ........ Raise your hand. uh huh

God, Jason, I remember cutting them out myself too. I hated it. And P-90 base-plates cut from brass stock too. Drilling holes perfectly straight. UGH.

You're right. Everyone and thier brother and grandmother is winding and hyping and pushing thsse days. The market is WAY over-saturated. I have a feeling the market may collapse in on itself soon.

Consider my hand raised. I've been left out in the cold on a few occasions with customers pissed off cause I don't have parts in stock... seems to happen with gold HB covers most of all.

[David King]

So who's that Canadian bass maker making his own bridges?