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Current Measurement Concepts vs. Perception

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  • #46
    Steve wrote; "As has been said, the music technology industry is made of baseless fantasies," I feel it's more that aspirations are made of baseless fantasies, just like in most industries & markets, nevertheless some product will perform better than others...just as in other industries & markets. Success in any industry is based on a healthy mark up & sales figures, sell cheap & buy even cheaper ...it doesn't go hand in hand with idealistic design & quality perceptions, however clever, or noble. Once price/quality/distribution put you outside the entry level/baseline market you have to accept smaller sales, less buying power & higher prices. Sometimes this equates to a better quality/functioning product, sometimes not. If you want total control of your design you typicaly have to follow the latter path, if you're happy with a regular salary, anonymity & to see every other teenager in the market place use your gear, then you'll be happy to be a little cog in a big machine.

    Sometimes, the artisanal product is worth the extra money, sometimes the big manufacturers get right at an acceptable price...we can speculate & commentate on our perceptions of what fits which bracket all day long, but getting to the bottom of it starts with actually posessing/trying the product in question. The truth is that the OP feels the cable in question sounds better than the comparison product (no details, spec, or info on the comparison) and that most, if not all the other posters on this thread (myself included) simply DON'T KNOW for sure if that is, or is not the case (for all the allusions to "science", it's ironic to note that scientists often "don't know" and aren't afraid to say so). We don't have either sample to evaluate at any level. Ergo, the assertions that the OPs perceptions are true or otherwise, are just as foundless, we can all speculate as to why there is/isn't/shouldn't be any difference (whilst, let's face it, we are all aware of differering manufacturing methods & tolerances), or we can take the OP with a pinch of salt & maybe try the product IF given the opportunity, or we can buy 100 different cables, assemble thousands of players and start the laborious process of double blind comparison, sensory testing...given the market penetration, that should only take 3 or 4 months of solid work and cost 50-100K, then add whatever you like for scientific analysis to back up/disprove the results. ;-)

    In short, the doubters are just as evangelical & irrational as the believers, but no one is getting off their backsides...everyone expects to be believed.

    Do I believe that 2 cables can sound different (in the context of connecting a familiar instrument to a familar amplifier)? Yes. Does one cable have mystical properties? No, it probably works as intended & considerably more examples simply don't. Will a cable that merely functions get me through a gig? Yes. Perhaps a cable that I perceive is doing a better job will give me a higher degree of comfort & let me stretch out a bit more. Maybe it really does, maybe that's just positive reinforcement at work. Definitely, no one in the audience will know or care about the cable, they will enjoy a reasonable/good/exemplary performance (some will just be stunned that the artist has got the front to stand on stage). Whatever the science & design merits, many muscians are a superstitious & irrational bunch with no interest in the physics.

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    • #47
      Yes, it's kind of sad that an artisan product often offers worse value for money. I guess it must offer better perceived value for money.

      Going back to cables... I guess there are some other hypotheses:

      1. The preamps on Rick's instruments are actually sensitive to cable capacitance. Many op-amps will go unstable if you connect them straight to a long coax, and need a series snubbing resistor of a few hundred ohms.

      2. The Vovox cables have really good plugs that make a better contact, or something. They certainly look great.

      3. The Vovox cables, having a lousy screen, pick up more RF that adds a high-end sparkle with a hint of taxi transmissions.

      Mind you, a guitar cord made of Klotz La Grange cable with Neutrik ends should do the same for less money. La Grange has a quoted 70-80pF per meter vs. Vovox's 75, and Neutrik plugs are machined from solid brass and heavily nickel plated. On a scale of engineering appreciation, I rate them higher than the Switchcraft ones. (watch out for the Chinese Neutrik Ningbo ones nowadays, though)
      "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

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      • #48
        well that sort of gets at the heart of it, doesn't it?

        if the musician believes that there's something in his/her rig that makes them sound better, chances are, they'll PLAY better.

        put another way, there is an end result that is absolutely unmeasurable no matter what the test consists of, yet is nonetheless there.

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        • #49
          I use Klotz La Grange with Neutrik plugs.

          Plugs themselves affect a complete cable's self capacitance, I always measure self-capacitance of a cable with bare stock, no plugs.

          Capacitance, as far as I can tell, is only half the story...the La Grange & Sommer Spirit show very similar properties in that respect, but sound quite different. They have entirely different construction.

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          • #50
            Well then, you better tell us some more about the other half. Or better yet tell it to Douglas and Rod. Or James Randi, who might be more sympathetic.

            I have a heap of guitar cords in a corner of my living room, and they all sound different. (Sadly, nothing as nice as a Klotz la Grange with Neutrik plugs.) But I'm willing to believe that capacitance is the whole story. But who knows, maybe the dielectric loss angle matters too and you can hear the difference between polystyrene and PVC.

            I thought the plugs would only add about 5-10pF each, but I guess I should check that.
            "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Steve Conner View Post
              . La Grange has a quoted 70-80pF per meter vs. Vovox's 75,
              a lot of hifi guys swore by ibm type 6 "token ring" cable.

              specs on that were 8.5pf/ft iirc, or 28pf/m

              i had a trashbag full of hundreds of feet of the stuff from way back when i supported an IBM-TR network in the late 90s. i don't know if i still have it though.

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              • #52
                Well, it doesn't sound half as good once the token has fallen out. I hope you tied knots in the ends before storing it.
                "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

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                • #53
                  Steve "Well then, you better tell us some more about the other half. Or better yet tell it to Douglas and Rod. Or James Randi, who might be more sympathetic."

                  The other half is, ahem, ..."I don't know". :-)

                  I hoped it was capacitance, because that would have just made life simple & comfortable...but materials & construction (when comparing products with the same capacitance per metre) perhaps play a role? Whenever I felt I'd spotted a trend with regards to construction materials & style, I'd find a cable that bucked that trend. All I can say is "try before you buy"....

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                  • #54
                    So what kind of subjective effects do you find on the tone with different cables that have the same capacitance? (I'm not trying to be smart, I am genuinely interested!)

                    I really should get round to making myself a La Grange one.
                    "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

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                    • #55
                      I measured Kloz La Grange, Allessandro AudioQuest Guitar 1 (with plugs, sealed construction), Sommer Spirit, George L all at about 24 to 25pf/ft. All cables 10ft.

                      The Klotz had the best detail, Allessandro & George L were similar (I felt the Allessandro edged it, but wouldn't buy another due to cost and feel, solid core, not very flexible), Sommer Spirit was much darker/duller than the others.

                      The Klotz has a centre conductor of 7 strands of 0.2mm wire (0.022mm CSA), a fairly rigid teflon dieletric & a fine spiral shield.

                      Allssandro - didn't take it apart due to cost.

                      George L - "thin" centre conductor (by eye), relatively fine braided shield.

                      Sommer Spirit - 0.5mm CSA centre conductor, 28 strands of 0.15, heavy braided shield, much more pliant dialetric than the Klotz. I got this as a replacement order for the 'out of stock @ the time Klotz', after being told "it was the same". A/B'd against my "gold standard" control lead - it wasn't, so I resoldered the plugs, still duller, made another 10ft cable very carefully, still noticably duller. During testing, had a client return a Sommer Spirit made at short notice, without A/Bing, "because it was dull".

                      I had a Guyatone EDM1 speed cable that originally had a volume control built in, I cut this down to a 10ft plain cable, measured 19pf/foot ("thin" centre conductor, very fine braided shield), it was on par with the Allessandro, George L (also Planet Waves @ 33pf/ft, Klotz 4.5mm patch cable @ 46pf/ft, Sommer Session MkII @ 45pf/ft & some cheapy Proel cable at 42pf/ft).

                      All this interest in cables started because I used to keep a little 4W amp (recently serviced, new tubes) by the bed & jump up & have a play 1st thing in the mornings (AKA just after midday to everyone else)...a couple of times I thought the amp was failing, no detail, dark, muffled. I measured AC wall voltage, plate voltages, plate current in these instances & couldn't find anything amiss. I was confused until I realised that I had 2 cables in close proximity & the poor performance followed one particular cable & was obviously repeatable. So I bought a bunch of cables, a dozen different types of bare stock from Studio spares, a bunch of Neutrik plugs & got soldering...There are cables as good as the Klotz, but generally much more expensive, the Klotz is a safe bet & fair priced. There may be better than the Klotz out there, but I'm sick to death of making cables now.
                      Last edited by MWJB; 02-23-2011, 02:03 PM.

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                      • #56
                        My first experience with cables was the Monsters - prior to that I figured an open circuit was an open circuit (as an engineer I know would say), but hearing was believing. I now have a full collection of these things and while there are better cables out there, they have that lifetime warranty going for them and I feel too cheap. I'd love to try some of these others that you're talking about, but I have so much money sunk into cables as it is. I did measure the capacitance of them at one point, and while I didn't write it down (maybe I'll do that in the next few days) it didn't seem to be much lower than a typical guitar cable, so they must have something else going on for them.

                        I will say these things are notorious for going very microphonic completely randomly. Perhaps they're using a less stable dielectric?

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                        • #57
                          and here we have the case that we pretty much know nothing for certain
                          Michael Shermer: The pattern behind self-deception | Video on TED.com

                          btw, the end is hillarious...
                          Last edited by StarryNight; 02-24-2011, 09:37 PM.

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