Man vs. Machine Distributed Capacitance

[kevinT]

We all know that the main purpose/benefit of scatter winding (spacing between each turn and layer of wire) is to reduce the distributed capacitance of the coil, which generally results in a better sounding pickup (warmer, more balanced).

Despite what most folks have heard and think about programmable winding machines, they can create a level of distributed capacitance equal to hand winding. This is done by programming the controller to adjust the pitch or spacing between each turn/layer…. a more precise scatter, ….so to speak.

IMHO and through experience, programmable machines can wind pickups that sound just as good as those created by hand winding. Case in point…Wolfe’s pickups,.. which get rave reviews, are probably mostly done by an automated winding machine using a specific programs. SD and DM are also done by machine.

HERE IS MY QUESTION: With both pickups being identical, except for the actual scatter, (but with the same level of distributed capacitance), would both pickups sound the same? (Amps, cables, pots, etc… would also be the same)

Would the actual physical scatter of the wire affect the pickup’s voicing? ...again, all things being equal.

Yes…..I know… suck it and see. …and I will. It’s on my to do list. I just wanted pose the question in the forum to see what folks thought/experienced. I would be particularly interested in hearing from Wolfe, R Walker, Jason, and whoever else that does both programmable winding and hand winding….Joe, chime in to enlighten us as well.

[soundmasterg]

Wolfe's machine works great and makes some really good sounding pickups. He can deactivate the machine scatter and do it himself still if he wants to, and can even hand tension it if he wants to also. I doubt if he often does though because the machine works just fine. He can randomize the scatter to a certain extent too as the coil winds if he wants. It makes for something that is more reproduceable than strict hand winding since there is less variation.

You said: "With both pickups being identical"

it can never happen. With anything you make, there are tolerences, and those add up to affect things. The bobbins will be slightly different. The magnets will be different and have different magnetic fields and strength even being the same composition. The wire will be a different thickness even if it comes from the same spool. The tension will likely change as the coil is wound. If you try your best to keep things as close as possible, then yes, the scatter will affect how the coil lays on the bobbin and will affect the tone because it affects how the coil reacts to the magnetic field. But yes, try it and see for yourself.

[Sock Puppet]

The Acid Test

If hand-scatter-wound makes the world of audible difference, how many could put their hands up in an A-B test and discern between that and machine scatter, or machine none-scatter winding for that matter?

Is that a hand at the back there?



S.

[J S Moore]

I have never really thought that was the proper question. The real question is " what do you prefer between any given pickup" Most of us here probably couldn't pick our own out of a line up, let alone scatterwound versus machine wound.

In a blind test I think the pickups most would pick time and again would be from a small winder. We are the ones satisfying individual needs as opposed to large companies producing product for the masses. What I am talking about is not " which is handwound" but "which do you prefer".

When I was in high school (more years ago than I care to recall) my business teacher scoffed at the "Coke VS Pepsi" ads. I've dated myself now. He claimed that it wasn't a valid test because no-one could tell the difference between the two. We did a test to guess which was which and he was right. No-one could tell. I could taste a difference between them, but I couldn't identify them. It didn't occur to me until later that he had missed the point. It wasn't to identify the product, but to identify which one you preferred. I think it is the same question here. It's not that anyone can identify scatterwound or machine wound, it's what they prefer. And as I said, in a test I bet the "boutique" ( although I dislike that word) pickups will be chosen more often as the preffered tone.

[kevinT]

this post is by no means about big guy vs. boutique winder or machine vs. hand winding and which ones are better. Those debates are never ending and never winning issues...just like politics, religion, etc.

I guess I had a brain fart and just wanted to make a point. Many pickups wound on a programable winder sound quite good. I really don't have a preference for either one. I've hand wound up to this point and am moving towards a machine. My philosophy is if it sounds good it is good...or however the saying goes. And its all about the tone as Stan's slogan states.

What i'm trying to uncover is if you compare two identical pickups (or ones that are as close as possible to each other) and the only thing different is the scatter (remember they both have the same compactiance levels--which is why we scatter) would the two sound the same?

Maybe I'm trying to split hairs and get too deep into the matter when its really not necessary.

[Spence]

I only handwind ( so you'll not want to be hearing from me ).
However, I had no opinion on this subject until i got myself into this mess.
I was entering into a venture to make guitars. My partner at the time had a mortal fear of making necks for the guitars so we had to look at cutting costs elsewhere if we were going to buy in necks. The obvious solution was to make the pickups for which I duly volunteered. I figured I could make an entirely machine wound pickup but I thought I would do the guiding by hand first to get an idea of the principles involved. My first pickup that worked had such stunning dynamics and tone that I was blown away. All of a sudden I was hearing tones that I had only previously heared from guys with vintage Fenders. I had never been able to get those sounds from any aftermarket pickups. So I was convinced by that alone.

Having said that, I was talking to a guy the other day who was totally gutted by the non-descript tones from his Timbuckers but blown away by Wolfe's Dr.Zhivagos.

[Possum]

infinite differences....

The worst sounding pickups ARE machine wound, but they are perfect wound, perfect layering , side by side winds. The real truth is that machine CONTROLLED pickups and hand wound pickups can both sound great. Spence will probably argue this one with me, but in my opinion the majority of PAFs were machine wound. Now tell me a good sounding PAF sucks?

The real truth is it is really hard to nail down exactly what kind of winds on a machine really produce a great tone. You can wind one with say 100 turns per layer, then wind one 97 turns per layer and have the faster traverse one sound darker or brighter, there is no logic that few turns per layer equal brighter tone, it just doesnt work that way in the real world. There isn't any logic I've found by how many turns per layer will produce what effect, and I'm using an LCR meter to track this stuff so its in real numbers I can see. Also if you're not winding perfect layering you ARE scatter winding and any scatter even if programmed to wind the same turns per layer is going to have some randomness to it because you got wires crossing over eachother which are all affecting preceeding layers below that all piling up on eachother in imperfect ways.

If you need brightness in a pickup using machine controller layering is the way to go, hand winding generally makes darker sounding pickups and this can be done on a machine and quantified. Humbuckers and P90s benefit in my opinion from machine control layering. Strat bridge pickups need a random wind to kill the screech. Hand winding generally has smoother tone with way softer resonant peaks, this is measurable.

Some of this stuff doesn't show up on meters and isn't measureable. I did two different turns per layer on a bucker bobbin recently that were vastly different but on the meter they read identical numbers, but you can bet your ass they sound different and react different when you use your ear.

What all this boils down to is even if you have a machine or hand wind no two guys winding pickups are going to have the same sounding product, your pickups will sound like YOU made them an no one else. Well, unless you have a real coil winder than can lay down winds perfectly side by side, then anyone can copy your program and probably will sound nearly identical. Hand wound pickups aren't "better" they are different than machine controlled winds and both have their uses.

[JGundry]

Just today I unwound a dead slug coil on an early transitional Patent sticker pickup and rewound it with my computer controlled winder. I unwound the rewind partially to make sure I had duplicated the original. The computer controlled wind was absolutely true to the original. I can tell you without a doubt that there is no way to duplicate the winding pattern or the scatter found within that pickup by hand winding. A machine or computer controlled winder is the only way to do it.

The fact is that there is a peculiar kind of scatter that you can only get with a machine or computer controlled winder. For a pickup like a PAF this kind of machine guided scatter is a key part of the tone. I have been focusing my pickup making time PAF's for the last few years. Only in the last year have I become convinced that computer winding is a key part of making a great PAF clone. Is it any better that hand scattering for a PAF? Yes. Is it better than hand scattering for an early Fender pickup? Beyond repeatability no. But it is certainly it's equal with added benefits.

[WolfeMacleod]

Having said that, I was talking to a guy the other day who was totally gutted by the non-descript tones from his Timbuckers but blown away by Wolfe's Dr.Zhivagos.

You mean the Dr. Vintage's? They don't exist...it's only a rumor....

[Possum]

PAFs

I wouldn't go so far as to say a computer wound PAF is better than a hand wound one, there are some highly regarded PAFs out there that are hand wound. Though personally I think the machine is better, humbuckers are so damn full of frequency cancellations at alot of frequencies other than 60 cycles that it takes alot to cut through the mud. On a bridge bucker I think its better to add more scatter in a random manner if you want a smoother darker tone there, but thats also just a tonal choice and not everybody's cup of tea. Winding hotter pickups than vintage I think a machine wind is better at cutting through all that impeding stuff that gets in the way with alot of winds. Coils aren't the total picture though, all this stuff about keepers and pole screws and every damn piece of metal in a humbucker has dramatic effects on tone. I hand made a keeper and a set of slugs out of hardware store metals, I have no idea what the stuff is but its definitely NOT 1018, it sounded bright, and stiff, wouldn't give it up on stage. Its all a marriage of parts, the coils aren't everything...

[JGundry]

I think you can make great sounding humbuckers with hand winding. But if PAF's were machine I don't think there is any way to get around the need to machine wind a PAF if you want to call it a PAF. If you think that the manner in which the coil is wound has an impact on the tone then I don't see how you get around needing a machine winder for a PAF. You can call it a PAF but if one of the key specifications is not there it really is not a PAF.

[kevinT]

I did two different turns per layer on a bucker bobbin recently that were vastly different but on the meter they read identical numbers, but you can bet your ass they sound different and react different when you use your ear.

KABOOM!!!! that's what i was looking for. So it will affect tone.

What all this boils down to is even if you have a machine or hand wind no two guys winding pickups are going to have the same sounding product, your pickups will sound like YOU made them an no one else. Well, unless you have a real coil winder than can lay down winds perfectly side by side, then anyone can copy your program and probably will sound nearly identical. Hand wound pickups aren't "better" they are different than machine controlled winds and both have their uses.

I think also there would be differences in coils/tone among different programmable machines. For example, the slightest wobble of the spindle or vibration of one machine would lay the the wire differently than the other one, even if both controllers were set up with the same program. In other words, no two progammable winders are the same even by the same manufacturer. I visited the factory where my winder was built. Everthing is assembled by hand one part and one machine at a time. I'm thinking that even the smallest nuances can affect tone of the coil. For example, maybe an assembler came in with a hangover and torqued a bolt less than that it should of been which caused a minute vibration throughout the machine. Perhaps something like that could affect the coil and ultimately tone.

[JGundry]

I think the manner in which the wire is guided onto the bobbin may effect the scatter. Most small computerized winders guide the bobbin to lay down the wire. I have seen photos of 3 different Gibson winders and they all guided the wire and not the bobbin. My computerized winder guides the wire and not the bobbin. I can also hand guide the wire via a joystick but for a PAF it is computer guided start to finish.

[David Schwab]

When I was in high school (more years ago than I care to recall) my business teacher scoffed at the "Coke VS Pepsi" ads. I've dated myself now. He claimed that it wasn't a valid test because no-one could tell the difference between the two.

I can easily tell which is which. Pepsi has a more citrus taste, while Coke is more cinnamon/clove based. I actually drink both, and it depends on my mood, but it's usually Pepsi! Pepsi is sweeter and has more bite. Coke is smoother. The New Coke was actually better than both of them.

But getting back to your point... yes, it wasn't about who can tell which was which, but which one did they prefer.

You can also put the notion out there that hand wound pickups sound better, and people will agree! But being hand wound doesn't automatically make it good, just as machine wound isn't automatically bad. I like Duncan guitar pickups for instance... never heard one I didn't like, but I don't care for most of the DiMarzio humbuckers. Both are machine wound. I think if you come up with a good design, that's what matters. Now if you are trying to go for a certain tone.. that's another thing.

[kevinT]

I think the manner in which the wire is guided onto the bobbin may effect the scatter..

yes I agree.

Most small computerized winders guide the bobbin to lay down the wire. .

wow....I've never seen one like that (i'm curious..I'll do a search later to see if I can find one). Most bench top winders that I've seen all guide the wire onto the bobbin via a wire guide assembly of some kind.

My computerized winder guides the wire and not the bobbin. I can also hand guide the wire via a joystick but for a PAF it is computer guided start to finish.

Yep, mine does too. The manufacturer of my machine also has sort of a joystick apparatus. It was an option that I didn't buy with my machine but i might later on. It's a unit that fits onto the tailstock bars. You feed the wire through a tensioning system and you move the unit back and forth along the bars. The unit slides along the bars as you guide the wire onto the bobbin. It's sort of neat in that you don't have to focus both on applying tension and guiding the wire at the same time. ..it eliminates one of the two tasks... which is tedious after sitting guiding wire and monitoring your hand tension after long periods. With this device, you only have to focus on the scatter and not the tension. However, you can still use techiques to manipulate/adjust the tension throughout the coil. You would stop the machine after a certain number of turns and adjust the knob to dial in a new tension and start up the machine for a another set number of turns.

I also use a tailstock to clamp the tooling onto place so the bobbin won't wobble while spinning. One of the quirks i've noticed with mine is if you don't have the tailstock postioned and torqued correctly, it makes my tooling (device that holds the bobbin), wobble a bit. Eventually, another one of my experiements will be to wind a pickup with the wobble and one without and to compare each one's tones.