Man vs. Machine Distributed Capacitance

[mick]

Hi Greg

Although some might equal their own early efforts is anybody machine winding anything better sounding than any of the great hand wound pickups ?

Mick

[Zhangliqun]

As far as randomness goes ("the mystery deepens" thing), it's true -- by definition, scattered/handwound (hand-guided) can't be duplicated from one pu to the next.

But because of the consistent sound I get from my crazy scatters, I beginning to suspect that it's not so much the exact 'pattern' of scatter (if you will) that makes it that way but the degree of scatter or randomness. Just a theory anyway.

I do believe it is at least theoretically possible to get scatterwound tone out of a fully machine-wound pu. If it's just degree of scatter, as I theorize, it should be possible to program a machine to scatter it to that degree and get the same or at least super-close results. And taking it to another level, for anyone wanting to get a PAF and take it apart to duplicate every single turn, you should be able to duplicate that PAF on your machine winder, assuming you could get all the other parts/aspects of said PAF right -- or at least a combination of different parts that somehow produces the same results.

The point is that the wire doesn't care whether its laid on by hand or machine. If it's the exact same wire, pattern and tension, it should come out the same, again assuming all the other parts/construction are equal. Just like a molecule of CO2 is a molecule of CO2, whether produced by animal breath or burning wood.

All that said, as to whether anyone has actually achieved a hand/scatter tone with a machine, I can't say. I haven't tried Wolfe's (or any of the others who might use machines and have great reps), though I constantly hear great things about Wolfe's stuff.

[soundmasterg]

Although some might equal their own early efforts is anybody machine winding anything better sounding than any of the great hand wound pickups ?

Well this brings up the question of which great hand wound pickups are you comparing everything to? Your own? Someone else's? Vintage pickups from various makers? Do you actually have some of these old great-sounding hand wound pickups on hand to do A/B comparisons with or are you just going on recorded examples? We all know you can't really compare stuff to recorded samples because no one knows how the gear in the studio affected the finished product.

The pickups I have of Wolfe's that were early and mid career (at least of Wolfe's career so far) that were hand wound sound as good as the later machine wound stuff he did for me. No better....no worse. Basically aside from the differences you will get between a pickup due to more or less wire, magnet strength etc., there is really no difference between the pickups that he did. I think that is because Wolfe did all the winds himself, and he paid attention to what he was doing and made sure he did it right, and he's very good at what he does. It also has to do with all the pickups being scatterwound. I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that some were wound by hand and others wound on a machine. I've known Wolfe since around 1996 and Jason not long after and have met them both many times as they're only a 3 1/2 hour drive away from me. They've both always been very commited to improving their craft and making the best pickups they can, and they use the best materials and supplies they can find, and those things are what makes the most difference I think.

I've heard and been around Possum's evolution first hand from complete hand wind to machine wind, and have seen the various methods and machine types he uses as he and I are local to each other and good friends. There are different techniques for each type of wind (hand vs machine) that he had to learn to get the sounds he was after, but he can make a great pickup either way, and using the machine allows certain things to be done easier and certain sounds to be acheived easier in my opinion. It also allows more time and less operator fatigue to try out different ideas. Possum is just as commited to improving his craft as Wolfe and Jason, and probably many others on here too.

I think saying that hand winding is the only way a good pickup can be made, or saying it is superior to machine winding, or the other way around, just because that is the way you do things is pretty short sighted and arrogant of anyone who does it. Until one tries winding by hand vs a machine wind, they don't really know the pros and cons of each and are just spouting off.

Greg

[kevinT]

I think there are advantages to making your own winder rather than buying a commercial one. With a commercial winder you are usually stuck with whatever wire guide system that comes with the machine. If you make your own you con decide for yourself things like how far the guide will be from the bobbin etc...

Uh-oh...John...here we go again....you've opened a can of worms

It's hand vs. machine....Now its commercial winder vs. homemade winder

[kevinT]

But because of the consistent sound I get from my crazy scatters, I beginning to suspect that it's not so much the exact 'pattern' of scatter (if you will) that makes it that way but the degree of scatter or randomness. Just a theory anyway.

That is the bottom line and what i was trying to get at from my original post of this thread.

Does the actual physical configuration of the scatter affect the tone or does it really matter if both pickups (whether machine or hand) meter out at the same readings (with each having their own scatter configuration).

The point is that the wire doesn't care whether its laid on by hand or machine. If it's the exact same wire, pattern and tension, it should come out the same, again assuming all the other parts/construction are equal. Just like a molecule of CO2 is a molecule of CO2, whether produced by animal breath or burning wood.

Great point!!!

[mick]

"I think saying that hand winding is the only way a good pickup can be made, or saying it is superior to machine winding, or the other way around, just because that is the way you do things is pretty short sighted and arrogant of anyone who does it. Until one tries winding by hand vs a machine wind, they don't really know the pros and cons of each and are just spouting off.

Greg"

Well not really Greg , it's an opinion on it (and there are some good sounding machine wounds out there ), same as yours is and everybody else's , so have you compared any pickups you have hand wound to anything you have machine wound ? or are you just arrogantly spouting off about something you don't actually yourself do ? In which case your argument is a little less strong than some of the others on here , forgive me if you actually you yourself wind both types..
Mick

[soundmasterg]

Mick, I don't wind pickups, although I intend to at some point once I get done messing around with amps. It gives me an interesting perspective in that I don't use either method, but it also means I don't know anything about winding from a firsthand experience level and I'll be the first to admit it. From a player only standpoint, I find I much prefer scatterwinding, but whether that is done with a machine or by hand doesn't seem to matter much as I can get the sound I want either way by having someone good like Wolfe, Jason, or Possum wind a coil for me. I have compared coils wound with both methods from Wolfe and there isn't much of a difference between the hand winding vs the machine winding. There probably would be if someone other than Wolfe did it who wasn't as experienced with both methods.

Since I intend to wind myself at some point, I have paid very close attention to different winders like Wolfe, Jason, and Possum, and seen their setups and methods for over 10 years. I've been on the pickup forum since it's first incarnation three forums ago long before it moved to Ampage. I've unwound some pickups and repaired various types on my guitars. While all of that doesn't make me an expert at all, it does mean that I am far from some inexperienced layman.

All I'm saying is that you can go on and on about how you think hand winding is better, and someone else can go on and on about how they think machine winding is better, but until each of them has tried both methods for themselves and given an honest effort to making good sounding pickups with each method, they can't really give an objective opinion of both methods and they can't be counted on as an expert. Since Wolfe, Jason, and Possum have all tried both methods, I'd submit that they know more about what is possible from each than you do since you've only done hand winding.

greg

[mick]

Greg

Fair point and I wasn't trying to belittle you in any way with regards to you not winding , sorry if it came across that way , I'm passionate about pickups and personally think that hand wounds are superior , just in the same way that people who now machine wind for various reasons think their way is best
( production capabilities is one that springs to mind , money is another ) , I have no intention of machine winding but have compared mine to others and don't seem to be losing anything , it doesn't interest me and I will never get to the point that I have too . i would imagine that duncan and dimarzio came up with the same arguments when they went over to machines too , but when you start winding you might see it differently instead of just listening to other people and jumping to someones defence because they happen to be your friends...

Mick

[Spence]

All this talk about scatter patterns is total bullshit and everyone who claims to have a special scatter pattern for different tones is a liar. Challenge me on that Don Mare etc... The meaning of 'scatter' is to lay it down randomly, not to a set pattern. Anyone claiming to program specific scatter patterns into their CNC machines for different tones and pickups styles is delusional on the same scale as Hitler was.

Personally, I wonder if your machinewound pickups sound as good as your handwound pickups, were you getting any mojo from your handwinding to start with?????

[JGundry]

All this talk about scatter patterns is total bullshit and everyone who claims to have a special scatter pattern for different tones is a liar. Challenge me on that Don Mare etc... The meaning of 'scatter' is to lay it down randomly, not to a set pattern. Anyone claiming to program specific scatter patterns into their CNC machines for different tones and pickups styles is delusional on the same scale as Hitler was.

Personally, I wonder if your machinewound pickups sound as good as your handwound pickups, were you getting any mojo from your handwinding to start with?????

Spence,

When I made my computerized winder I did it because I wanted to duplicate every bit of the manufacturing and construction process of a PAF that I could. When I actually started winding with it there was a eureka moment in which it became clear that I was getting a very specific kind of scatter due to using a machine winder. It is a kind of random scatter that I was not expecting. But it is there and it can only be gotten with a machine winder. If you ever get a machine winder you might figure out what I am talking about for yourself.

[kevinT]

scattering with a machine

There are two methods that i know of thus far to do a scatter wind with my machanical winder (i'm still learning what it can do). Even though it's computerized, it is a reletively simple operation. You can do what Wolfe stated in his description of his winder in one of the threads (i think it was in the coil winder section). You can focus the wire on certain areas of the bobbin for a set number of turns and move to other areas of the bobbin (I'm kind of leary about this method at this point...but i'm going to experiement with that technique though). This technique also might be good for those folks from the school that believes coil shape affects tone (i would think you would get some bulging until you got the hang of knowing how much wire to place in certain areas).

The second method involves dialing in different pitches (pitch is another word for gauge in machine winder lingo) (this method is probably the most common because it makes for a more neat, uniform coil). How it works is..for example, instead of dialing in the actual gauge of wire (in mm)that i'm using into the program/controller, you would enter a larger pitch which would lay the wire farther apart instead of pricisely next to each other. Lets say that if im using 44 AWG, I would enter the gauge of 42 AWG ..basically tricking the controler to space the wire according to the larger gauge.thus, creating extra space between each turn. You would do this for a certain number of turns or run that program for the entire coil. Now, if i wanted to make a more complex coil, i would program another layer on top of that one with a different pitch for another set number of turns...i can do this until the coil is complete.... sort of like hand scattering but you have to work within the parameters of what the machine can do. ...that is why i stated earlier that it was a more precise scatter..... which probably doesn't make a difference anyway as long as the actual amount of scatter is there if you want to compare it with a comparable handwound pickup.

I believe there are still more ways to scatter, i just haven't figured them out yet.

[Spence]

Spence,

When I made my computerized winder I did it because I wanted to duplicate every bit of the manufacturing and construction process of a PAF that I could. When I actually started winding with it there was a eureka moment in which it became clear that I was getting a very specific kind of scatter due to using a machine winder. It is a kind of random scatter that I was not expecting. But it is there and it can only be gotten with a machine winder. If you ever get a machine winder you might figure out what I am talking about for yourself.

Umm, that sounds a little patronizing Mr Gundry.
I can get a machine winder any time I like. It's not a funding issue.

ran·dom (răn'dəm)
adj.
Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See synonyms at chance.
Mathematics & Statistics. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.
Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance.
A specific scatter is not a random scatter.

So is it random or specific?

If I ever do decide to get a machine winder it will be because I need to up the scale of my production and for no other reason. I will then make it clear on my website and avertising that I have sold my soul to the Devil and will be buying a hair dresser's car in the near future.

[kevinT]

[QUOTE=Spence;18252]

So is it random or specific?

[QUOTE]

This keeps getting interesting.

Is it possible to have a specific random pattern?...Seriously....because that is what it actually is if winding via controller... the ultimate goal of reaching a certain level of distributed capacitance. the example below is basic. i hope it conveys the point...(I'm not the mathicmatical/science type, so if i'm messing this up or making it more convoluted..forgive me)

Both winds have 9 spaces but they have different patterns. This is what I'm trying to get at...would the pickup sound differnt? I hope i'm not belaboring the point.

True Random/ Specific wind to recreate the end result of a random wound coil

III I I II I II = 9 capacitance / I I I I I I I I I I= 9 capacitance

Does it make sense? I think i'm confused now.

I think we need Joe Gwinn to break it down with a mathematical equation.


Spence did you try out that tape source? if so how did you like the tape?

[JGundry]

Umm, that sounds a little patronizing Mr Gundry.
I can get a machine winder any time I like. It's not a funding issue.

ran·dom (răn'dəm)
adj.
Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See synonyms at chance.
Mathematics & Statistics. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.
Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance.
A specific scatter is not a random scatter.

So is it random or specific?

If I ever do decide to get a machine winder it will be because I need to up the scale of my production and for no other reason. I will then make it clear on my website and avertising that I have sold my soul to the Devil and will be buying a hair dresser's car in the near future.

Sorry Spence I did not mean it to sound patronizing. I just don't really want to give away the special sauce in an effort to convince someone to get a machine winder. Again the fewer that have them the better in my book.

To satisfy the obvious semantic requirements please substitute atypical as in not the typical scatter you would get from hand winding. Specific is really a better word because but try atypical.

[David Schwab]

" right, so the point is you can't use that analogy because the difference has nothing to do with handy work, it has to do with the electrical construction."

Well yes , because the point being made was that man made is better sounding than machine made

You didn't answer my question about what if you had a robot arm solder up a point-to-point circuit for a tube amp. Same parts, same layout, just a different arm doing the work.

Do you really think it would sound different from a human doing it? If you do, give us a reason. The same parts are in the same location wired the same way. There's no way it will not sound the same.

The analogy about a circuit board vs. P-to-P doesn't work, because circuit boards in tube amps can sound different from P-to-P, regardless if they are wired by hand. A hand wired PCB is not made by a machine, right? But it will sound different.

Likewise a solid guitar body carved on a CNC router will sound exactly the same as a hand carved body.. in as much as any two bodies will sound the same, and they wont. Build two identical guitars with the same wood, parts, finish, etc., both built by hand, and they will sound different.