peter green '59 paul sound

[Gunn_Slinger]

Just read that his '59 had one pickup magnet reversed. This gave him an out of phase sound from the middle pickup position. Is this the same as wiring one pickup reversed from the other?
Thanks
Clay

[David Schwab]

Just read that his '59 had one pickup magnet reversed. This gave him an out of phase sound from the middle pickup position. Is this the same as wiring one pickup reversed from the other?
Thanks
Clay

Yes. Some people claim it sounds a little different, but I have reversed the phase on pickup that way and it sounds the same to me.

[soundmasterg]

I have a set of Possum's Peter Green humbuckers in my Les Paul with 50's wiring with the magnet reversed in the neck pickup and the pickup installed backwards..just like Peter Green's guitar was setup. I also have a guitar I built with some Duncan humbuckers in it, with electrical out of phase switching, and granted there are differences between the various pickups, but the electrical effect of out of phase vs magnetic out of phase sounds different to my ears. It is something that you can tell when you compare them side by side in my opinion. You can also blend the out of phaseness with the volume controls when setup like a Les Paul, which is really cool.

Greg

[Gunn_Slinger]

Thanks guys
Greg, I think the '50,s wiring prob makes a big difference. I really like that wiring, much more control over the vol and tone of the guitar.
Thanks again
Clay

[soundmasterg]

Thanks guys
Greg, I think the '50,s wiring prob makes a big difference. I really like that wiring, much more control over the vol and tone of the guitar.
Thanks again
Clay

Yah for me the 50's wiring is "IT". That was a revelation, and I think it is a large part of the holy grail Les Paul sound.

Greg

[Mark Hammer]

Do NOT confuse the electronic phase relationships with the string-sensing differences.

ALL 2-pickup combinations result in some cancellations due to one part of the string being closer to the magnet while another part of the string is farthest away from the other pickup. You'd need high-speed stop-motion photography to be able to see it, but you need to keep in mind that thatblur as the string vibrates really boils down to a metal body approaching and veering away from the magnetic sensing area.

Because those cancellations have to do with what part of the string is closer to pickup A while another part if farther away from pickup B, they are fundamentally (no pun intended) dependent on where you are fretting. That's because those points of maximum/minimum excursion for different harmonics will depend on the note and string length (as length gets shorter, you'd expect contrast between maximum/minmum excursion to be reduced and less long-lived).

My point is basically that the PG sound is only partly resulting from changes to the pickups. The remainder (quite apart from what "the fingers" provide) comes from the altered relationship created between the pickups when their sensing relationsip to particular harmonics is altered for notes fretted within a certain range on the fretboard.

make sense?

[David Schwab]

I have a set of Possum's Peter Green humbuckers in my Les Paul with 50's wiring with the magnet reversed in the neck pickup and the pickup installed backwards..just like Peter Green's guitar was setup. I also have a guitar I built with some Duncan humbuckers in it, with electrical out of phase switching, and granted there are differences between the various pickups, but the electrical effect of out of phase vs magnetic out of phase sounds different to my ears. It is something that you can tell when you compare them side by side in my opinion. You can also blend the out of phaseness with the volume controls when setup like a Les Paul, which is really cool.

Greg

Take Possum's pickup, flip the magnet over, and then wire it out of phase. Then tell me it sounds different than it did.

Then take the Duncan, flip the magnet over and wire it out of phase. It's very easy to flip the magnets around.

I've done this with pickups and I don't hear any difference. You have to use the same set to test it.

[Gunn_Slinger]

Ok, good info.
Sooo...who or what is Possum? I assume he /or they make pickups, but I would like to have some info on them/he...lol.
Thanks
Clay

[big_teee]

Ok, good info.
Sooo...who or what is Possum? I assume he /or they make pickups, but I would like to have some info on them/he...lol.
Thanks
Clay

Another Winder, of Many Around here. lol
B_T

[soundmasterg]

Do NOT confuse the electronic phase relationships with the string-sensing differences.

ALL 2-pickup combinations result in some cancellations due to one part of the string being closer to the magnet while another part of the string is farthest away from the other pickup. You'd need high-speed stop-motion photography to be able to see it, but you need to keep in mind that thatblur as the string vibrates really boils down to a metal body approaching and veering away from the magnetic sensing area.

Because those cancellations have to do with what part of the string is closer to pickup A while another part if farther away from pickup B, they are fundamentally (no pun intended) dependent on where you are fretting. That's because those points of maximum/minimum excursion for different harmonics will depend on the note and string length (as length gets shorter, you'd expect contrast between maximum/minmum excursion to be reduced and less long-lived).

My point is basically that the PG sound is only partly resulting from changes to the pickups. The remainder (quite apart from what "the fingers" provide) comes from the altered relationship created between the pickups when their sensing relationsip to particular harmonics is altered for notes fretted within a certain range on the fretboard.

make sense?

I hear what you are saying David, but I think that the reversing of the magnet and installing the pickup backwards from normal plays a huge difference in the sound difference. Just electrically out of phasing it doesn't give the same effect to my ears. Having the pickup backwards from normal would change how it would sense the string vibration and I wonder if the magnetic field would interact differently with the magnetic field of the other pickup, or if they are more localized that that. I can't explain it very well, but the magnetic out of phase is different and more versatile, especially when you have it hooked up like in a Les Paul where you can change the effect more or less by adjusting the volume controls.

Taking the pickups apart is too much trouble right now for me....I use the Les Paul often in a live setting and don't want to mess with it. The other guitar with the Duncans would also pose issues because the Duncan pickups are so heavily wax potted it would be a mess to swap the magnets around. Maybe one of these days I will mess around with it though.

For the guy who was asking, Possum is Dave Stevens and you can check out his site at Home: SD Pickups, Custom-Made Hand-Wound Pickups by Dave Stephens, Stephens Design . He also has lots of youtube videos.

Greg

[David Schwab]

I hear what you are saying David, but I think that the reversing of the magnet and installing the pickup backwards from normal plays a huge difference in the sound difference.
Just electrically out of phasing it doesn't give the same effect to my ears. Having the pickup backwards from normal would change how it would sense the string vibration and I wonder if the magnetic field would interact differently with the magnetic field of the other pickup, or if they are more localized that that. I can't explain it very well, but the magnetic out of phase is different and more versatile, especially when you have it hooked up like in a Les Paul where you can change the effect more or less by adjusting the volume controls.

You are talking about two different things. Turning the pickup around will make a change on tone. Flipping the magnet won't. I've been putting phase switches in guitars since 1970. On Les Pauls and other two volume guitars you can vary the mix of the pickups.

A good example is a Fender Mustang. each pickup has a phase switch. You can flip them both out-of-phase and then you are back in phase, and it sounds exactly the same. And the magnets are reversed on one pickup.

But with a humbucker, you are hearing the composite signal from both coils. So the magnet doesn't work like on a single coil since you have a north and south coil. North and south on the magnet sound the same.

Plus it's all relative. You can reverse the magnet on the bridge pickup and they are out of phase again.

Taking the pickups apart is too much trouble right now for me....I use the Les Paul often in a live setting and don't want to mess with it. The other guitar with the Duncans would also pose issues because the Duncan pickups are so heavily wax potted it would be a mess to swap the magnets around. Maybe one of these days I will mess around with it though.

Well I've done it dozens of time. It makes no difference. As far as the signals from the pickups, out-of-phase is out-of-phase.

For the guy who was asking, Possum is Dave Stevens and you can check out his site at Home: SD Pickups, Custom-Made Hand-Wound Pickups by Dave Stephens, Stephens Design . He also has lots of youtube videos.

I know who Dave is. Doesn't change the facts.

[soundmasterg]

You are talking about two different things. Turning the pickup around will make a change on tone. Flipping the magnet won't. I've been putting phase switches in guitars since 1970. On Les Pauls and other two volume guitars you can vary the mix of the pickups.

A good example is a Fender Mustang. each pickup has a phase switch. You can flip them both out-of-phase and then you are back in phase, and it sounds exactly the same. And the magnets are reversed on one pickup.

But with a humbucker, you are hearing the composite signal from both coils. So the magnet doesn't work like on a single coil since you have a north and south coil. North and south on the magnet sound the same.

Plus it's all relative. You can reverse the magnet on the bridge pickup and they are out of phase again.



Well I've done it dozens of time. It makes no difference. As far as the signals from the pickups, out-of-phase is out-of-phase.



I know who Dave is. Doesn't change the facts.

The original poster was asking about Peter Green's sound, and in order to get that, you have to reverse the pickup, and reverse the magnet. That is what I was alluding to when I said it sounds different than electrical out of phase. My guitar with the all the switches and options including out of phase can't obtain that sound electrically because the pickups aren't reversed.

I was pointing out Dave's info to the other guy who asked. Sorry you thought I was bringing it up in reference to what you and I were talking about.

Greg

[David Schwab]

The original poster was asking about Peter Green's sound, and in order to get that, you have to reverse the pickup, and reverse the magnet.

See, you are making a statement, but you need to qualify it. Explain how reversing the magnet is different from reversing the wires.

That is what I was alluding to when I said it sounds different than electrical out of phase.

But it is electrically out of phase. Explain how it isn't.

My guitar with the all the switches and options including out of phase can't obtain that sound electrically because the pickups aren't reversed.

By "reversed". are you talking about rotating the pickup so the studs are closest to the neck? That has nothing to do with the magnet or the phase. That will make the pickup sound different. Steve Howe from Yes does that to his pickups, but with the bridge pickup.

I was pointing out Dave's info to the other guy who asked. Sorry you thought I was bringing it up in reference to what you and I were talking about.

I'm saying that reversing the polarity of the magnet is the same as reversing the polarity of the wiring. That's a fact. The rest is people's imagination.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

I'm with David on this one... I've heard some people argue that one polarity is fundamentally different than another, and in a deep physical sense that may be true, (have your clown posse picture handy, David?) but I've never heard a north pickup sound different than a south pickup. I've done this test (albeit in a sloppy way) in a tele. You can re-magnetize the pickups while in the guitar and give yourself a pretty quick test. Speed seems to be the key in doing these tests - wait a couple hours and you forget how something sounds. I didn't hear any difference after I did the test a few times (had to get the magnetization consistent). On a guitar with a phase switch, you can listen to how it sounds solo with the wires reversed in real time. There is a small, hard to define difference.

The heart of the original argument seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong) that there are two ways to be out of phase. Magnets AND windings being against each other ends up turning it 360 degrees and is IN phase. So, you have to reverse only the magnets or only the windings. So, the idea here is that one method will perform differently than the other. Since on a solo pickup reversing just the magnets has little or no effect and reversing windings make a very small difference, it is hard to figure out where this could come from. I'm willing to admit I haven't tried it and can't say for sure, but I seriously have my doubts.

But then again, I'm biased because I think out-of-phase wiring sounds horrible pretty much all the time.

[Mark Hammer]

When two HB pickups are combined, the string is vibrating over two north and two south poles simultaneously. True, the sensing area is essentially the gap between the screws and slugs within each pickup (where the north and south poles "surface"), but in another almost macro sense a pair of HBs with the same pole oriented towards the middle (and outside) is a bit like one very big multi-coil P90, isn't it? (disregarding the large gap between the two sections of whatever pole is facing the middle)