Neodymium-iron-boron polymer magnets

[David Schwab]

The pickup in the patent does not appear to be a humbucker; I think the one in the sound clip is. Am I missing something?

His original version was a single coil that he built himself. Then he worked with Shadow to make the humbucker version. That pickup is set up the same way, except for an extra coil.

"Except it does have an affect": I really do not think it can. You do not know that the sound and the claimed reason for the sound have any relationship, and they appear not to in this case.

Why not do this; get some magnets and a coil and try it and see. Apparently he found he got a certain tone when he arranged the magnets that way. You would have to assume he started out with as many parts, but arranged differently, otherwise he would have use stuck to a standard pickup.

This is sort of like the discussion we had about different magnets sounding different. You didn't think that was possible either, but we showed it is. Sometimes it's a simple matter of wondering what a different magnet will sound like, and actually trying it out. Then you might be surprised when it makes a difference, such as I was when I tried a ceramic and then a neo in the same pickup.

So some of us think the magnetic field path shape makes a difference, based on experimentation more than theory.

[Mike Sulzer]

Why not do this; get some magnets and a coil and try it and see. Apparently he found he got a certain tone when he arranged the magnets that way. You would have to assume he started out with as many parts, but arranged differently, otherwise he would have use stuck to a standard pickup.

That does not mean that the arrangement of the magnetic field caused it to sound that way. The experiment might not allow for the change in eddy currents, for example.

This is sort of like the discussion we had about different magnets sounding different. You didn't think that was possible either, but we showed it is. Sometimes it's a simple matter of wondering what a different magnet will sound like, and actually trying it out. Then you might be surprised when it makes a difference, such as I was when I tried a ceramic and then a neo in the same pickup.

So some of us think the magnetic field path shape makes a difference, based on experimentation more than theory.

Sorry, I do not remember you showing exactly what caused the effect. It is very hard to understand what is happening without using theory to help constrain the experiment.

[David Schwab]

That does not mean that the arrangement of the magnetic field caused it to sound that way. The experiment might not allow for the change in eddy currents, for example.

Use ceramic magnets.

Sorry, I do not remember you showing exactly what caused the effect. It is very hard to understand what is happening without using theory to help constrain the experiment.

I don't know what caused the affect. But I know that there was a big difference in tone between ceramic and neo magnets, with the neos having more low end. The ceramics sounded thin in comparison.

I'm just saying there may be things going on that we haven't accounted for yet.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

A bit off topic, but I remember reading about a sort of comb shaped blade pickup, where the blades have 90 degree cuts in them under the strings so that the magnetizing field gets it at different angles. I never heard it, I just happened to see the patent at one point because a friend emailed it to me.

Can't say too much, but it seems plausible. Magnetism is a vector force insofar as I understand these things, and guitar strings behave very differently at different angles. Classical guitar students generally have this explained to them in their first year as they are told the difference between a rest stroke and a free stroke. Rest strokes are generally louder and more forceful because they work against the top of the guitar more than a free stroke. I always assumed this is why strat pickups (and similar) have more pop to them than others, because the magnetic field is perpendicular to the fingerboard and those qualities are emphasized. It is hard to verify, because I don't see many guitar pickup tests that measure harmonic structure or the envelope of a note, which are two things that I try to listen closely to when evaluating anything, pickups or otherwise. I could be entirely wrong, but my crackpot theories have done okay for me thus far.

[MrCandy]

A bit off topic, but I remember reading about a sort of comb shaped blade pickup, where the blades have 90 degree cuts in them under the strings so that the magnetizing field gets it at different angles. I never heard it, I just happened to see the patent at one point because a friend emailed it to me.

Can't say too much, but it seems plausible. Magnetism is a vector force insofar as I understand these things, and guitar strings behave very differently at different angles. Classical guitar students generally have this explained to them in their first year as they are told the difference between a rest stroke and a free stroke. Rest strokes are generally louder and more forceful because they work against the top of the guitar more than a free stroke. I always assumed this is why strat pickups (and similar) have more pop to them than others, because the magnetic field is perpendicular to the fingerboard and those qualities are emphasized. It is hard to verify, because I don't see many guitar pickup tests that measure harmonic structure or the envelope of a note, which are two things that I try to listen closely to when evaluating anything, pickups or otherwise. I could be entirely wrong, but my crackpot theories have done okay for me thus far.

Yes it is interesting and very much on topic.
Some time ago we started to work on this problem(when magnetic fields of one pickup have many vectors), so we started to make new pickup magnetic system, that would ve combined single coil pickups advantages and also have classic humbucker sound volume and also without canceling the higher harmonics.
We made our first prototype and tried it on electro guitar, although this system is developed for bass guitars. It is just easy to see all nuances.
Prototype includes 2 coils working in phase (in this case total number of turns is 8000) located horizontally.
This pickup has 3 active zones and two vectors of magnetic field direction. There is a lot of steel in this pickup, but eddy currents dont spoil anything.
One small magnet bar. Construction can boast with its width that is larger than in standard humbucker. Real bass pickup will consist of two systems like that to get hum canceling and we will use our new neodymium-iron-boron polymer magnets (although 2 coils working in phase gives pretty small noise like classic guitar hum)
Unfortunately we can not fully reveal the device but we can share sound tests:

Our pickup on Strat{neck):
Single blues II test.mp3

Prototype on LP(neck):
Prototype two coils horizontal test.mp3

[LtKojak]

Prototype on LP(neck):
[ATTACH]15448[/ATTACH]

This bit sounds like the acoustic sound of an unplugged les paul in a sound-proof booth recorded with a Neumann U87 at a very close range...

I can't imagine how to use a sound like this in a band setting.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

This bit sounds like the acoustic sound of an unplugged les paul in a sound-proof booth recorded with a Neumann U87 at a very close range...

I can't imagine how to use a sound like this in a band setting.

To be fair, he did say that though the clips are for guitar, it is more intended for bass. Things that are uber transparent do seem to work better on bass, especially with all the active systems involved with some instruments.

I agree though - I don't think it sounds good or useful, but it does sound unique. It is surprisingly clean/acoustic sounding. If someone had told me it was a new kind of piezo pickup, I might have believed them... and that sorta makes sense when you consider pickups just from the point of view of vectors, right? Isn't that the basis of the highlander systems? I realize that is in part because they want to sense the instrument as well as the string (which isn't an issue in this case) but it seems like the underlying philosophy in both cases is that being more 3D gives you a more natural sound.

I'd love to hear what that would sound like say, without all of the steel in there. Maybe that is the point of the neo/resin materials? A very natural sound like that seems like a great starting point to get all sorts of more nuanced sounds. Subtracting is always easier than adding... at least in my modest experience.

[LtKojak]

I agree though - I don't think it sounds good or useful, but it does sound unique.

I didn't say it was BAD or NOT USEFUL. I'm pretty sure some artist WILL add it to his arsenal and it'll certainly welcomed. Just not me AT THE MOMENT.

For example, if I had to back a singer up, a la Tuck and Patty, I'm pretty sure I could use such a tone...

I've heard the strat bit as well. What's interesting is that's the NECK p'up. It sounds like a piezo in an electric guitar. In my book, it may give a very good foundation for a new p'up design altogether.

Mr. Candy, you may be onto something here. Keep up the good work!

[fieldwrangler]

A bit off topic, but I remember reading about a sort of comb shaped blade pickup, where the blades have 90 degree cuts in them under the strings so that the magnetizing field gets it at different angles. I never heard it, I just happened to see the patent at one point because a friend emailed it to me.

Can't say too much, but it seems plausible. Magnetism is a vector force insofar as I understand these things, and guitar strings behave very differently at different angles. Classical guitar students generally have this explained to them in their first year as they are told the difference between a rest stroke and a free stroke. Rest strokes are generally louder and more forceful because they work against the top of the guitar more than a free stroke. I always assumed this is why strat pickups (and similar) have more pop to them than others, because the magnetic field is perpendicular to the fingerboard and those qualities are emphasized. It is hard to verify, because I don't see many guitar pickup tests that measure harmonic structure or the envelope of a note, which are two things that I try to listen closely to when evaluating anything, pickups or otherwise. I could be entirely wrong, but my crackpot theories have done okay for me thus far.

I'd be interested to look into this patent. My own efforts in this direction have resulted in stuff that really seemed like it should have had an effect on paper but didn't have any in the pesky Real World.

[MrCandy]

Thanks for the great interest in our magnetic system to everyone who expressed their opinion in this topic.
In sound tests we showed you above we just wanna check this magnet system response to sound with nearly identical chars like single coil pickup have.

This prototype electrical chars anyway:


Single coil that we used for comparison:


You must understand that is was just a magnetic system test experiment and we wont use sound that we got in pickups we made, although this system has a great future for our active bass pickups.
We expect clean 3d tone and dense(bulldozer) sound when we will use bonded magnets and system like that in bass pickups construction.

[fieldwrangler]

Don't forget Rickenbacker pickups, some of which use rubber magnets.

I'm currently making new versions of some pickups I used to make 20 years ago with rubber magnets; wouldn't be surprised if there's now a better material (or soon will be.)

Bob Palmieri

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

You must understand that is was just a magnetic system test experiment and we wont use sound that we got in pickups we made, although this system has a great future for our active bass pickups.
We expect clean 3d tone and dense(bulldozer) sound when we will use bonded magnets and system like that in bass pickups construction.

I sort of figured that was how it was - you were testing a particular element, and it wasn't a prototype nearing final version.

Kojak - sorry, I guess I read your comments as more extreme than they were.

[MrCandy]

Good evening respected community.
As promised earlier we want to present you our new bonded magnets with more details(sound tests,tecnical data,our thoughts and etc.).

So:

1) How this magnets look like and its mechanical properties:
For standart Hum(2,444x0,492x0,125)

For rail pickup single coil size(2,283x0,287x0,120)


These magnets are lightweight and if we will compare them with standart weights of A5 hum bars, then they will be twice lighter(16grvs8gr)
Also these magnets can be easily processed with abrasive and hard cutting tools, you dont really need to use tools with diamond coating, simple tools will do their job.
When tapped this magnet dont sound like metal item, heard as hard plastic(distinctive muted sound).
Also you must know that cryogenic technology is used for this production corrosion resistance.

2) Tecnical characteristics and data:

Presented samples magnetic induction characteristics:
Standart hum magnet

Rail magnet


We would ve like to note that we can make any specific magnets with magnetic induction that suits you.(for example 50 or 100mT...)

DCR measurements:


Permeability and eddy currents:



We took 3000NT coil here for you compare data with/without magnet.
For example if we wouldve took A2 then coil inductance will increase 100mH up.

To be continued in our next post...

[MrCandy]

Equipment for all the sound tests further:
For clean sound: Our amp open cab 2X12, microphone AT4040 was located near G12H dinamic, no effects added
For drive: Marshall TSL60 lead channel and 1960A 4x12, same mic.

3) Rail pickup(Neck) sound tests and data(compare to ceramic 5):

Data For C5:



Data for Neodymium-Iron-Boron polymer magnets:



Now here is sound samples for you to compare:

Clean:
C5 Rails N C5 Clean.mp3
NIB Rails N neo Clean.mp3

Drive:
C5 Rails N C5 solo.mp3
NIB Rails N neo solo.mp3

To be continued...

[MrCandy]

4) Humbucker(Bridge) sound samples and data in compare with A5:

This construction with A5 data:



This construction with NIB magnet data:



Sound samples to compare:

Clean:
A5 Leading Player Br Clean A5.mp3
NIB Leading Player Br neo Clean.mp3

Drive:
A5 Leading Player Br A5 solo.mp3
NIB Leading Player Br neo solo.mp3

To be continued...