handwinding: the variables are...?!

[Corcia]

First of all, as far as this is my first post, i would like to say hallo to everybody and to say that i've been reading this forum for a long time.
I've just started to wind pickups (strat single coils only up to now), i wound a couple of sets up to now, what i would like to know is: once materials have been defined i.e: alnico V beveled poles and AWG42 Formvar wire (from mojotone), what's left to improve or just to change the sound of pickups?
of course number of windings shall have the effect we all know, but once the number of windings have been fixed (or the DC resistance has been fixed), is there anything else that might affect the sound?
I am winding coils on a home made winding machin that only allows me to count the number of coils, the wire is hand guided; is there any space to experiment with the same materials and the same number of turns? up to now i've been scatterwinding (or better delirious-wound i should say) and obtained a certain tone, trying to have a constant TPL (hand guided, obiously) might lead to a consistend change in the sound of the pickups?
Just to make an example, the first set i've wound (6,3 k - 6,4k - 6,7k) had a nice sound but a bit to rich in treable (most probably it is also a problem of height adjustment: they're set a bit too high....maybe...) is there any way, keeping the same materials and dc resistance, to obtain a smoother sound (less treble and more mids)?
i apologize for the huge number of questions!!
Before i started winding i really toght i've read enough....i was definetly wrong!

[big_teee]

6.3 is hotter than I like for a neck.
You might try a neck more around 5.6-5.9k
Middle a little hotter, I usually make the neck 5.8, middle 6.1, and bridge all I can get on it, around 6.5-6.7k.
Varying the bobbin height effects the tone a lot.
Try winding some shorter, and some taller.
Experiment with the TPL till you find what you like.
Also you might try different strength Gauss of your Magnets.
Good Luck,
Terry
Edit Note*
If you are trying to make a strat Sound like years gone by.
You need 250k Pots, and a .1uf Cap.
The smaller Caps mostly used now, make the guitar IMO sound more modern.
I furnish a .1uf Cap with each Pickup Set I sell.

[Corcia]

Thanks a lot!
ok, now i have some more aspects to take into account.
Referring to bobbin height and TPL how do they affects sound? i mean, a taller bobbin is more (or less) "what" than a shorter one? and how is the sound of higher TPL in comparison to lower TPL or scatterwound?
i've already tried, instead, to degauss magnets but i did not ear any interesting variation in the sound; to me it seemed as the tone was more or less the same until the magnet got too weak and the PU started sounded very crappy (i've been measuring the gauss with a gauss meter (home made) while doing such tests).

[David Schwab]

6.3 is hotter than I like for a neck.
You might try a neck more around 5.6-5.9k

+1

5.6k makes a wonderful sounding neck pickup IMO. Gets that juicy round tone when you play up the neck.

Corcia, you can try a few things. I don't know if that wire was heavy formvar, but you can try regular build 42 gauge, and that will give you a different tone. You can also try 43 gauge for more mids (wind the same number of turns, not to the same DC resistance). You can also try more or less winds, and different magnets.

[Corcia]

+1

... I don't know if that wire was heavy formvar, but you can try regular build 42 gauge, and that will give you a different tone. You can also try 43 gauge for more mids (wind the same number of turns, not to the same DC resistance). You can also try more or less winds, and different magnets.

you're right, it was heavy build formvar (from mojotone), do you think it would be such a great difference to wind with regular build?
BTW do you have any other supplier to advise? Mojo only supplies heavy build, stewmac only has Poly, and here in italy they do not know what formvar is.

[David Schwab]

you're right, it was heavy build formvar (from mojotone), do you think it would be such a great difference to wind with regular build?
BTW do you have any other supplier to advise? Mojo only supplies heavy build, stewmac only has Poly, and here in italy they do not know what formvar is.

There is no reason to use formvar, it's just a type of vanish used for insulation. If you use regular build poly or regular build formvar, it will sound the same.

The reason the heavy build sounds the way it does is because it makes a larger coil, and there is more distance between each wrap because of the insulation thickness.

The heavy builds have a rounder spongier tone, while the regular builds are firmer sounding. This would also be true if you used 41 gauge wire instead of 42.

[Ward]

There is no reason to use formvar, it's just a type of vanish used for insulation. If you use regular build poly or regular build formvar, it will sound the same.

The reason the heavy build sounds the way it does is because it makes a larger coil, and there is more distance between each wrap because of the insulation thickness.

The heavy builds have a rounder spongier tone, while the regular builds are firmer sounding. This would also be true if you used 41 gauge wire instead of 42.

I see a contradiction here Dave. The HFV does indeed sound different to other insuls. First you say it doesn't, then you say it does.

[David Schwab]

I see a contradiction here Dave. The HFV does indeed sound different to other insuls. First you say it doesn't, then you say it does.

OK... follow along here...

I said; "If you use regular build poly or regular build formvar, it will sound the same." It does. I have rolls of both. By "regular" I mean single build. Formvar is not just heavy build.

You said "HFV does indeed sound different to other insuls." I'll assume that means heavy formvar. I said regular build, not heavy. Heavy build formvar sounds just like heavy build poly. I use both. They are interchangeable. It's the insulation thickness here, and not the material that makes the difference.

He said he can't find regular formvar anywhere. I said there's no need for it, use poly. Mojo carries single build poly. The only heavy build they have is in formvar. But you can get heavy build poly. I have a 5lb roll of it.

I think he didn't realize that heavy formvar is not the same as single build formvar. My point was for him to try single build wire, and in this case poly. You don't want to use heavy build for everything.

Not a single contradiction anywhere.

[Ward]

OK... follow along here...

I said; "If you use regular build poly or regular build formvar, it will sound the same." It does. I have rolls of both. By "regular" I mean single build. Formvar is not just heavy build.

You said "HFV does indeed sound different to other insuls." I'll assume that means heavy formvar. I said regular build, not heavy. Heavy build formvar sounds just like heavy build poly. I use both. They are interchangeable. It's the insulation thickness here, and not the material that makes the difference.

He said he can't find regular formvar anywhere. I said there's no need for it, use poly. Mojo carries single build poly. The only heavy build they have is in formvar. But you can get heavy build poly. I have a 5lb roll of it.

I think he didn't realize that heavy formvar is not the same as single build formvar. My point was for him to try single build wire, and in this case poly. You don't want to use heavy build for everything.

Not a single contradiction anywhere.

Yes well that does seem to clear that up. brrfff.

[Corcia]

ok, wait....
....you are "Bustin' a Myth"!! I mean: up to now I believed that the type of varnish used for the insulation played an important role in the sound of PU, now, if I’m not misunderstanding your posts, you’re saying that two pickups wound exactly the same way one with poly coated wire and the other formvar coated shall have exactly the same sound (comparing the same type of coating heavy build with heavy build, etc.)?
So, why this formvar rush? Why Suppliers offer different coatings PE, FV, Poly….i’m dazed and confused!!!

[Corcia]

....The reason the heavy build sounds the way it does is because it makes a larger coil, and there is more distance between each wrap because of the insulation thickness.

The heavy builds have a rounder spongier tone, while the regular builds are firmer sounding...

David, does this concept applies also to Scatterwound vs(High TPL) machine Wound? will scatterwound sound spongier than machinewound due to distances among coils?
when you say firmer sounding you mean more treble or just more clearer sound?

[Mike Sulzer]

David, does this concept applies also to Scatterwound vs(High TPL) machine Wound? will scatterwound sound spongier than machinewound due to distances among coils?
when you say firmer sounding you mean more treble or just more clearer sound?

Various circuit parameters have changed, and so the resonant frequency is different as is the Q. The subjective differences are important because it is the guitarists that count and you need to understand how that works, but it is your opinion on what the differences mean that allows you to do this.

[David Schwab]

ok, wait....
....you are "Bustin' a Myth"!! I mean: up to now I believed that the type of varnish used for the insulation played an important role in the sound of PU, now, if I’m not misunderstanding your posts, you’re saying that two pickups wound exactly the same way one with poly coated wire and the other formvar coated shall have exactly the same sound (comparing the same type of coating heavy build with heavy build, etc.)?
So, why this formvar rush? Why Suppliers offer different coatings PE, FV, Poly….i’m dazed and confused!!!

There are some sound tests threads here. My experience with poly and formvar is they sound the same as long as the insulation's the same thickness. I bought some single thickness 43AWG formvar because at the time I couldn't get any poly from BAE. In my tests I can't hear a difference. I also have heavy formvar and heavy poly, and once again, you'd be hard pressed to tell the two pickups apart.

There seems to be some conjecture that plain enamel sounds different, but I don't use any of that, and that might also be the insulation thickness.

When most people say "formvar" they are talking about heavy formvar, and that sounds different from single build poly, which is probably the most common wire used in pickups.

Fender used formvar until 1964, so if you want more modern tones, you need PE or poly. Personally I wouldn't waste my money on PE, but others here will disagree.

[David Schwab]

David, does this concept applies also to Scatterwound vs(High TPL) machine Wound? will scatterwound sound spongier than machinewound due to distances among coils?
when you say firmer sounding you mean more treble or just more clearer sound?

Yes, scatter and TPL plays a part in the tone of the pickup.

By firmer, it's probably more upper mids or something. Tone descriptions are very subjective.

[carlg]

Does tension have any significant effect?