new gibson ccontrol cavity circuit board CRAP

[RedHouse]

Depends on whether you are discussing engineering or psychology.

Oh but, we're talking about tone here, aren't we?

[Mike Sulzer]

Bzzzzzt! nope, wrong.
(gets shaving cream sprayed in face)

You can hear (or, I should say "many of us can hear") the cap even when turning the knob one number's worth (ie; 10-9), but if your explanation pleases you, far be it from me to be a buzz-kill, rock on.

What do you mean when you write that you can hear the cap when turning the pot from 10-9? That different caps sound different on 9? (then why not just say 10? That is within variation from pot to pot)

Or do you mean that you think the difference that you hear when you turn from 10 to 9 is due to the cap, rather than from the change in resistive loading? If so, how do you know that? The circuit analysis says that the difference is from the change in resistive loading. Why would you doubt that?

[RedHouse]

What do you mean when you write that you can hear the cap when turning the pot from 10-9? That different caps sound different on 9? (then why not just say 10? That is within variation from pot to pot)

Or do you mean that you think the difference that you hear when you turn from 10 to 9 is due to the cap, rather than from the change in resistive loading? If so, how do you know that? The circuit analysis says that the difference is from the change in resistive loading. Why would you doubt that?

Aw geez here we go again. Oh look, I'm late for the door...

[David Schwab]

I do agree and find it helpful myself but can't see posting them on the internet or using them as public examples. One has to watch out for brining a whole new bunch of non-essential variables that can skew the use of the recording as a tone example. Ie; what amp, what mic, what mic-pre, what EQ, what recording device, all this can skew the listening-back part of judging stuff.

If YOU can hear a change, then everyone will hear a change. If they don't, than its not all that important a difference. It doesn't matter what gear you are using, and that can be outlined. As long as an audible difference between caps is heard.

I feel it's better to do live A/B testing with the exact guitar the customer uses and is why I built those lexan control cavity covers, I have them for several guitars, some with rotary switches for testing more types/values at once. I use them kinda like a Brannock device for guitars.

Now we are getting back into this subjective area. This is like the story about famous studio bassist Anthony Jackson and his "producer switch". He had a dummy switch on his bass, and if the producer asked him to try a different tone, he flipped the switch and asked "how's that?" and most of the time they said it was better!

I think we have all had customers that wanted something in particular, and even if we told them it didn't matter, they often felt it sounded better. This is phycology, and people hear what they expect to hear. This is why blind tests are done.

A good example was the JFET vs. Op Amp buffer test. Most people heard some kind of difference, but could not differentiate between the two.

A Listening Evaluation of Discrete vs Integrated Circuit Audio Preamplifiers in Stringed Musical Instruments

With all due respect, there's a bit too much of this attitude going on around here these days. We all need to take things down a notch on the throw-down thing. and yes, I do see the smiley-face "just kidding" thing there, but it's something I've been wanting to say lately.
(I include myself in this notion BTW)

I'm saying that since there's all this talk about people here saying this cap sounds like this, and that cap sounds like that. I'd be interested in what you are hearing. That's a simple matter of recoding the guitar. You don't even need an amp. If it's an audible affect, it will show up clean and direct. If it's something that only happens with certain guitars, though certain amps, with certain people playing it, than it's probably not a real affect and something else is going on.

But if so many people are saying this is a real thing, why are there zero recorded examples of this? There are lots of recordings of people's pickups, and they're are also subject to variables like the guitar/amp/player combo etc. So let's put this to rest once and for all. If the affect is real we should be able to capture an audio file and see if people agree on what is being heard.

Oh, and

It's easy to take people too seriously on the internet. I'm hardly all that serious in general.



Dammit, you are going to make me have to do this test myself....

[jmaf]

Oh but, we're talking about tone here, aren't we?

Here's an evil test. Disassemble a TS808, install the guts verbatim into a BOSS yellow box, hand it to different folks and ask what they think of it in comparison to the TS-808. Have fun....

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Someone did the cap test on a youtube video a little while ago - I think it was a guy who works for Korg. Real simple test with alligator clips, recorded, and played back to back. It is there whether we find a numeric way of representing it or not...

Honestly, if someone doesn't care enough to hear the difference, that is fine with me. I try to make a living with this stuff, so I try my hardest to track the impacts of all of these things, and I choose not to ignore things. If it was only the broad strokes that made a difference in design, then we'd all be out of the job.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

This is the clip:
Guitar Tone Capacitors, part 1: Evaluating Material Types - YouTube

Pretty good test, though it would be nice to know tolerances, and if he'd use some other cap types like ceramic disk or polypropylene... but still very good.

[David Schwab]

This is the clip:
Guitar Tone Capacitors, part 1: Evaluating Material Types - YouTube

Pretty good test, though it would be nice to know tolerances, and if he'd use some other cap types like ceramic disk or polypropylene... but still very good.

And as you can hear, there's pretty much no difference between types of caps of the same value. When there is a difference, it's probably in the tolerance.

And it's nothing you would even notice when playing in a band situation.

Now a fun thing would be to extract the audio from that video, so you can't see which caps they are, and see if you can hear a difference.

[copperheadroads]

That video always shows up in discussions .It's a keeper

[jmaf]

Someone did the cap test on a youtube video a little while ago - I think it was a guy who works for Korg. Real simple test with alligator clips, recorded, and played back to back. It is there whether we find a numeric way of representing it or not...

Honestly, if someone doesn't care enough to hear the difference, that is fine with me. I try to make a living with this stuff, so I try my hardest to track the impacts of all of these things, and I choose not to ignore things. If it was only the broad strokes that made a difference in design, then we'd all be out of the job.

I think everyone who is on this forum cares to hear the difference. I just don't hear it between good quality brands.

I have run experiments using xing-ling capacitors costing pennies, then with 2 to 3 dollar ones. I heard a major difference there, full body, low end, just a better tone, anyone could tell.

I have a lot of old paper in oil caps, I heard a big difference testing those against spragues, the old oil ones skew in value and lots of them leak DC...can't use them...but those defects change the tone. You can and will hear the difference between good/bad/different/deffective/new/old components.

But between good working condition sprague 715 or 716? Or the flat ones against the rounded ones, mallory 150 and sozo? Like I said, I don't mean to demerit the opinions here in any way, but I'm just saying I can't hear a difference. If you do, it'll probably be hard to describe what it is anyway....it goes into how you feel the sound, your likes, dislikes and so on....music is psychology.

[Mike Sulzer]

This is the clip:
Guitar Tone Capacitors, part 1: Evaluating Material Types - YouTube

Pretty good test, though it would be nice to know tolerances, and if he'd use some other cap types like ceramic disk or polypropylene... but still very good.

You need to go to part three for a ceramic test, I think. By the way, the orange drop he uses is polypropylene.

He has a random bunch of caps, not even measured in order to be testing different types of the same value. Any differences you hear have no meaning.

In part 2 he gives an incorrect explanation of how a guitar tone control works. i have not listened to much of part three yet.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

jmaf - I agree with you there. The divide is waaay bigger between the very bottom and the next level up. That is why I can't understand why manufacturer's who make guitars selling for thousands of dollars can't spring for the fancy $2 caps.

Mike - the orange drop is a 225P which is polyester; he erroneously calls it polypropylene in the video... I think he corrects it later.

David, I don't know if we're listening to the same video, but I'm hearing significant differences in the tonal balance even with the control on 10. I really don't think the whole "will you hear this in a band situation" thing is a good argument. Everything on an instrument is a cumulative thing. On its own it may be hard to hear, but stacked up with 20 other things on an instrument that you can hardly hear, you suddenly have dramatic differences. I can't think of many single things that actually make a big difference when considered on their own.

[RedHouse]

...Now we are getting back into this subjective area....

Dammit, you are going to make me have to do this test myself....

Yep, because sound and tone are subjective, this whole thing about certain individuals calling BS on other peoples subjective opinion is silly, people like what they like.

If certain individuals here wanna keep the scientific angle at the center of every discussion, maybe you could ask T-Boy if you can make a new sub-forum for all that kind of discussion, where it all can be argued ad nausium without smothering all the threads, all the time.

This being the Pickup Makers forum after all, we should be able discuss our (often) subjective opinions, touching on facts when appropriate, and opinions when necessary. I'm sure I'm not the only one around here that getting sick of the "prove it to me" BS every bloody time something comes up to discuss.

[Mike Sulzer]

Mike - the orange drop is a 225P which is polyester; he erroneously calls it polypropylene in the video... I think he corrects it later.

Oh good, thanks. I got corrected here once for claiming that orange drops could be polyester, or may be that they were polyester. I sure thought that the 50 year old ones I had were. I think the guy plays differently with different capacitors. These differences really do need double blind. Big differences do not, but these are not that big.

[Mike Sulzer]

Yep, because sound and tone are subjective, this whole thing about certain individuals calling BS on other peoples subjective opinion is silly, people like what they like.

If certain individuals here wanna keep the scientific angle at the center of every discussion, maybe you could ask T-Boy if you can make a new sub-forum for all that kind of discussion, where it all can be argued ad nausium without smothering all the threads, all the time.

This being the Pickup Makers forum after all, we should be able discuss our (often) subjective opinions, touching on facts when appropriate, and opinions when necessary. I'm sure I'm not the only one around here that getting sick of the "prove it to me" BS every bloody time something comes up to discuss.

Those like you who favor censorship never want it to apply to them. For example, when I started a discussion on how single coils and humbuckers sample the string, you contributed this:

"Trying" is the operative word to be sure, hopefully someday Mike will give us all a rest and think of another approach to stimulate discussion.

Surely you would not want to give up your right to enter a discussion that was clearly technical from the start and say any subjective personal thing that you want. Just as DS would not want to give up the right to claim that I started that discussion just to make an attack on his ideas. There is no such thing as a purely technical or purely subjective discussion on the internet. Your own comments are good examples of how it works.

No one is challenging your right to hold subjective opinions. But you are asking for the right to pass off your subjective opinions as objective truth without offering any proof. That is what your recent discussions with DS amount to. And then you want him to banish technical discussions to a subforum.