new gibson ccontrol cavity circuit board CRAP

[David Schwab]

Well, I used to think I knew what I was talking about and I agreed with Mike's diehard objective stance. But I had a few experiences that convinced me it's not as simple as firing up a FFT analyser and saying "Look, science, therefore I'm right and you're a ninny." There are several layers of mapping in the brain between the level that measurements represent, and the level of subjective appreciation. I don't believe there is anything paranormal going on, but on the other hand I don't think we understand the mapping in any scientific way.

Not all that can be counted counts and not all that counts can be counted. — Albert Einstein

[Mike Sulzer]

Unless maybe they're telling you to spend 20 bucks on a capacitor, then it's time for a sanity check from science. Maybe those magic caps from EBay sound so unique because they're out of tolerance, high ESR and leaky, and $1 worth of caps and resistors would give you the same tone, but it would be reliable.

Well that is a pretty big exception, capacitors that is. Are not capacitors in a guitar tone circuit really the only significant point of contention as far as listening versus science? Nobody is saying that capacitors do not sound different under some circumstances, just: in a guitar, tone pot on ten, prove your point.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Empirical data and listening results complement each other, and we should strive to understand the relationships between them. I believe that work you do here has a huge payoff. It can be as simple as running stuff through an EQ to get a feel for what boosts and cuts at different frequencies sound like. Instead of just being "too boomy" now you can say your prototype has about 8dB too much energy at 120Hz, and that gives you a correlation with the physics.

I think the distinction is whether running something through an EQ is helpful, or whether someone posting their results saying something is "too boomy" without first running it through an EQ is valid. If someone says it is too boomy, I'm not going to disbelieve them until they prove it to me with graphs; that sort of thing has been happening a lot here (not you Steve insofar as I can recall, please don't feel this is an accusation or argument). I think the "healthy level of skepticism" takes a poster on his word (perhaps with a grain of salt) when he says it is boomy instead of accusing him of caving into hi-fi propaganda.

It is also a matter of resources, insofar as we're talking about posters here. I'd LOVE to have great recordings of every single pickup I've wound, I'd LOVE to run all of the tests, collect all the data, etc. etc... but money is money. I make pickups in my free time to keep myself sane when repair work runs dry. I think many others on here are the same.

Great medical correlation. Perhaps I am strangely lashing out at some doctors I've dealt with who didn't use their basic senses and ordered up big tests instead. Anyone who can't handle simple deduction without million dollar machines and technicians to read the results to them missed their calling as a doctor. See what you did Steve? You got me all wound up....

[copperheadroads]

Mojotone Capacitor Shootout - My Les Paul Forums
Here's a good example .all clips sound good ..The only comment came from GBLEV
But as i was reading got the impression this member did not want to start a sh_t storm & he replied in the conservative way. to not get attacked
& there is always an inconclusive test ...........not testing properly
Dam I think they all sound good ......But maybe that's not my best interest
I just pulled the trigger on a couple hundred Russian PIO caps just to sell along with my pickups

[Mike Sulzer]

Mojotone Capacitor Shootout - My Les Paul Forums
Here's a good example .all clips sound good ..The only comment came from GBLEV
But as i was reading got the impression this member did not want to start a sh_t storm & he replied in the conservative way. to not get attacked
& there is always an inconclusive test ...........not testing properly
Dam I think they all sound good ......But maybe that's not my best interest
I just pulled the trigger on a couple hundred Russian PIO caps just to sell along with my pickups

I like that test. The two .022 caps sound different on zero, but to my ear it sounds like the actual capacitive values are different.

Playing on zero is not what guitarists tend to do, but it is where you are most sensitive to the effect of the capacitor. As you turn the pot up, there is less total current through that branch of the circuit, making it less important, and the voltage across the resistor goes up and the voltage across the capacitor down, making its characteristics less important.

[RedHouse]

...Nobody is saying that capacitors do not sound different under some circumstances, just: in a guitar, tone pot on ten, prove your point.

Well actually you have been saying that.
(and David S recenty too which surprised me)

Posting there is no documentable/observable difference between one cap and another in a guitar tone control circuit, totaly dismissing the end user's ear (and judgment). Have I been totally mis-reading your posts Mike?
(don't think so)

[RedHouse]

...But maybe that's not my best interest I just pulled the trigger on a couple hundred Russian PIO caps just to sell along with my pickups...

Well, IMHO, since many who buy pickups, and caps, can hear a difference and at the end of the day will decide which ones they like, regardless of academic opinion, it only makes total business sense to have PIO caps to provide if/when needed along with your pickups.

Going one step further (since some people can hear the difference) one might consider providing an additional a greenie/OD/M-150 then the customer could find the cap that suits their own rig and preference.

I tend to ask my customers a series of questions when they order my pickups, including the tone and resonance of their particular instrument, bright/mid/dark, and the type and setup of their playing rig (effects in particular, amp, speakers and cabs) so say if a guy has a highly bright sounding instrument (Tele) and plays with a Rangemaster into a Vox AC30, well that guy can use a PIO cap and be real happy, but a guy with a dark sounding mid 70's Norlin (pancake) Les Paul that plays with a triangle Big Muff Pi into a 70's Marshall Super Bass, well he's gonna be needing a cap that isn't like the PIO, brighter more linear cap.

Makes sense to me, if you sell or provide caps, might as well have those that are currently in demand (for whatever reason).

[Mike Sulzer]

Well actually you have been saying that.
(and David S recenty too which surprised me)

Posting there is no documentable/observable difference between one cap and another in a guitar tone control circuit, totaly dismissing the end user's ear (and judgment). Have I been totally mis-reading your posts Mike?
(don't think so)

I said there was none with the tone pot on ten; that the effect is very small with any functioning cap of a given capacitance in a guitar on tone zero because the voltage is low compared to the voltage limits; have agreed with Steve that there are significant effects when a ceramic is used near its voltage rating when its IV characteristic determines the response such as in the frequency determining circuit in an equalizer. I have written that you can see visible distortion from a ceramic on a scope if you run it close to its limit, and have referred on several occasions to Bateman's work which measure distortion in capacitors.

[David Schwab]

...totaly dismissing the end user's ear (and judgment).

Brad, using my ear, I hear no difference between cap types with the control on 10. If you listen to the YouTube link posted, the one with the guy with the rotary switch, you will also notice you can't hear any difference when he's using the full resistance. A few times it sounded like one was a little different, and then I realized it's the way he's picking, since it didn't do it the next time. That's one issue with these tests. It's hard to play the guitar exactly the same each time. Another thing is the player might be subconsciously playing a certain way because that's the tone he associates with e certain cap. This is why you need to do double blind tests. I also didn't hear any difference I would attribute to the cap type when he cut more high end out.

On the differences when the tone control was in the off position, or close to it, might have been due to each cap having a difference value, while still being in its acceptable tolerance range.

To really do this test well, the caps must be measured and matched first. Then the person doing the switching must not be the person doing the playing, who shouldn't know which cap is which. In that YouTube "test", the type of cap was prominently shown as he played each one. This lead to comments about what a certain cap sounded like, probably based on the listener's expectations, while I heard nothing different through my Sennheiser HD 515 headphones.

Comments like the low end is less muddy with a certain cap, when the tone control is on 10, make no sense at all.

So a lot of it is psychology. If you think about what the cap is doing in the tone control circuit, how would a different type of cap make any difference? If it's cutting more top end, then its value is different.

If a test is done listing the audio samples as A, though E, for example, and then had listeners pick which was which, how many do you think people would get right? I bet almost none, with the correct answers being by chance.

[RedHouse]

Brad, using my ear, I hear no difference between cap types with the control on 10. ...

That's fine David, and it doesn't require any proof.

Not everyone is a Buz Feiten (I sure am not) but as I've been saying here (as have others) that I experience a difference in tone caps, and I prefer some over others in my guitars, as do a healthy share (but not all) of my customers. Many have tried to desrcibe what they perceive when discussing cap differences (not values) but in the end, something was perceived regardless.

It's all good, and sound preference/enjoyment/perception doesn't have to be an acedemic argument all the time.

{Edit} oh and it's not on 10 that I'm talking about, it's thoughout the range of the pot travel. On zero difference is most distinguishable, on ten the least, but it's the in-between that myself and most folks find the differences get into the like/dislike area. You have to work the control when you play, different notes, different fretboard locations, then you find a cap implies differences on the instruments function.

Psycology? no, psycoacoustics? more likely.

[Mike Sulzer]

I tend to ask my customers a series of questions when they order my pickups, including the tone and resonance of their particular instrument, bright/mid/dark, and the type and setup of their playing rig (effects in particular, amp, speakers and cabs) so say if a guy has a highly bright sounding instrument (Tele) and plays with a Rangemaster into a Vox AC30, well that guy can use a PIO cap and be real happy, but a guy with a dark sounding mid 70's Norlin (pancake) Les Paul that plays with a triangle Big Muff Pi into a 70's Marshall Super Bass, well he's gonna be needing a cap that isn't like the PIO, brighter more linear cap.

OK Brad, you have carried the joke far enough. You do not really do this, right?

[jmaf]

So, is this thread gonna boil down to something I can use in my tube amps?

[RedHouse]

OK Brad, you have carried the joke far enough. You do not really do this, right?

I'll quit if you do.