Capacitance of braided shielded wire (Gibson type), if you please? :-)

[freefrog]

I know I should have posted it in the "Guitar tech" section but pickups makers might answer more easily to this question...

I vaguely know the typical capacitance per foot or meter of typical coax cable. Roughly: 50pf / ft or 150 pf / m. I just wonder if the overall cap is not higher with Gibson type coax braided shielded wire. A doc that I've here mention 28pf for 6'' but I've already noticed a drastic shift of resonant frequencies with coax cable: it suggests a much higher capacitance than that.

Also: I have to redo the harness of a LP, for someone who wants a more "vintage correct" tone. I strongly hesitate for the PU selector between "vintage correct" braided shielded stuff and an higher efficiency Mogami 4 wires - obviously modern but able to restore a bit of clarity whatever are the PU's used. What would you do?

Thx a lot for any advice.

[LtKojak]

What would you do?

The length used in wiring a LP is much too short to be worried 'bout capacitance.

I use the vintage braided wire for all my instruments, and in the 12+ years as a tech, I yet have to hear somebody complain 'bout this. I think it's the best solution, also because it's relatively cheap, and looks good when you open the cavity.

I think you worry too much, mon ami.

[David King]

God only knows what the capacitance of the 50 year old Gibson cable was before it dried up and turned to dust.

[big_teee]

If your worried about it effecting the tone, there's oh so many more varibles to be concerned about.
Magnet type and strength, has a large part to do with the tone, among others.
T

[freefrog]

Thx for your answers above and below, gentlemen!

I don't worry but I like to learn new things and to "rationalize" what I do. :-)

A vintage Wiring would involve a triple length of cable + all the already existent capacitive components (pots, plugs) and I've already noticed with my frequency analyzer that it can really shift down a resonant frequency. When I know that Seymour Duncan FAQ's recommend a 150pf cap to tame a too bright tone, I tend to think that a harness of the same capacitance would have the same effect...

big_teee, I understand and agree. Let's say that my ears are trained to detect cable capacitance, a parm with which I experiment for almost ten years: I've done so many tests about it that when I plug my Strat through a 370 then through a 450 pf, I actually notice a difference...
Now, as matter of fact, my countless tests about this parameter could have made me a bit "capacitance obsessed". Hey, after all, it's not a dangerous madness!

[copperheadroads]

Seymour Duncan makes the "Invader" which the neck pickup has a cap between the coils to tame some of the treble
you wont get any dcr reading with a meter

[David Schwab]

Seymour Duncan makes the "Invader" which the neck pickup has a cap between the coils to tame some of the treble
you wont get any dcr reading with a meter

Really? I've installed a few of those and never saw a cap. I also got a reading of 16.8 k. At 16k I wouldn't worry about taming treble. It doesn't have very much.

A cap in series would reduce low end, not high end.

Here's one of the guitars I installed it in. Not your everyday Tele!

[copperheadroads]

Really? I've installed a few of those and never saw a cap. I also got a reading of 16.8 k. At 16k I wouldn't worry about taming treble. It doesn't have very much.

A cap in series would reduce low end, not high end.

The cap is only in the neck verson of the Invader which is only wound around 7.2k
but it wont give you a dcr reading because of the cap (thats why i had it in for repair - it was never broken)

[David Schwab]

I didn't even know they made a neck version! I guess the cap is to remove some low end.

[LtKojak]

Thx for your answers above and below, gentlemen!

I don't worry A vintage Wiring would involve a triple length of cable + all the already existent capacitive components (pots, plugs) and I've already noticed with my frequency analyzer that it can really shift down a resonant frequency.

This is not true. With vintage wiring, you'll triple the shielding capacity, not the capacitance.

HTH,

[Possum]

I have looked at this before. I bought some "2 pair" vintage correct braided wire and also the 3 pair stuff that all the suppliers sell. The vintage correct stuff had noticeably less capacitance than the regular 3 pair wire, but it turned out not to be a good thing and about 9 months ago I quit using the 2 pair stuff. You also have to consider somewhat ohms per foot and its real obvious that vintage aged wire is higher in ohms than new wire is. You can get lost in theories here, what matters in the end is what does the harness sound like in a guitar? The cloth covered/braided wire cable has a nice transparency factor that seems to get lost when using cheap plastic wire found in lower end guitars. I noticed just changing the wire to braided type made the pickups sound more clear. Since I am dealing always with getting vintage tones I discourage anyone from buying high tech expensive cabling for their guitars, there often too much of a "good" thing turning into a negative. The harness is a musical part of the guitar and trying different pots, caps, switches and jacks can make dramatic differences and I have done alot of experimenting with what sounds good. Aged vintage Gibson wire in a guitar is definitely a factor in the final sound you're getting, and difficult to identify and quantify everything its actually doing, its not just a matter of capacitance. If you're doing a vintage style Les Paul you should copy exactly how the wiring was actually done, you can't see this on a wiring diagram. Dr. Vintage's white papers on his site has photos of how the switch was wired etc. even running the ground bus wire around all the pots should be copied.

[freefrog]

This is not true. With vintage wiring, you'll triple the shielding capacity, not the capacitance.

HTH,

If my memory serves me, my multimeter shows an increased capacitance each time I add a component (wire or something else) to a harness . More: I've been pretty surprised to see once on my frequency analyzer a resonant peak dramatically shifted down by the capacitive load of the wiring ONLY (as if the guitar had a whole 10 ft cable inside). I'll try to find in my archives the screenshot showing that. And if my memory betrays me, well, I'll admit to have done an error.

[freefrog]

I have looked at this before. I bought some "2 pair" vintage correct braided wire and also the 3 pair stuff that all the suppliers sell. The vintage correct stuff had noticeably less capacitance than the regular 3 pair wire, but it turned out not to be a good thing and about 9 months ago I quit using the 2 pair stuff. You also have to consider somewhat ohms per foot and its real obvious that vintage aged wire is higher in ohms than new wire is. You can get lost in theories here, what matters in the end is what does the harness sound like in a guitar? The cloth covered/braided wire cable has a nice transparency factor that seems to get lost when using cheap plastic wire found in lower end guitars. I noticed just changing the wire to braided type made the pickups sound more clear. Since I am dealing always with getting vintage tones I discourage anyone from buying high tech expensive cabling for their guitars, there often too much of a "good" thing turning into a negative. The harness is a musical part of the guitar and trying different pots, caps, switches and jacks can make dramatic differences and I have done alot of experimenting with what sounds good. Aged vintage Gibson wire in a guitar is definitely a factor in the final sound you're getting, and difficult to identify and quantify everything its actually doing, its not just a matter of capacitance. If you're doing a vintage style Les Paul you should copy exactly how the wiring was actually done, you can't see this on a wiring diagram. Dr. Vintage's white papers on his site has photos of how the switch was wired etc. even running the ground bus wire around all the pots should be copied.

Thx, Dave, help much appreciated!

[freefrog]

OK, I've just measured it on some samples of cables that I've received this morning:

Mogami 4 wires: 87pf / meter.

Gibson style vintage braided shielded cable: 268pf / meter (!).

Knowing that I've measured an average capacitance of roughly 150 pf / meter on dozens of typical coax guitar cables, these measurements appear to me as pretty significant... :-)

Hope these data to be somehow useful.

[wizard333]

Old thread, but FWIW, I just re-wired a historic LP because the wire from pots to switch and back to jack was outrageously high in capacitance, so much so that it sounded about equivalent to a 1200pf or so cap across the jack. All their wire doesn't have that effect, perhaps this was just a bad run, but everything "worked"; the guitar was just very dark/warm. I almost wonder whether they did that on purpose given it was a historic.