sidewinder wiring and winding....

[David Schwab]

There's a limit to what you can do in a P90 soapbar cover, what you're doing isn't so confined probably.

I work with similar sizes, and even much smaller. Try stuffing a side winder in a Jazz bass pickup cover! P-90s are nice and roomy.

What I didn't like about it is it doesn't sound like a P90 even remotely, go to YouTube and search for Fralin hum cancelling P90 and you'll see what I mean. He only went so far in his design. It sounds way too much like a steel pole strat pickup. I did try things like a steel baseplate which gave a jump in AC resistance in the mids but you don't really hear it. Yeah, to darken it with more winds it gets too strong, even degaussing isn't going to quite save you from that. We'll see if I get some time this weekend for a revised version. If I can get it dark enough I may sell it, but it won't be cheap to build and I won't be calling it a noiseless P90 because it isn't ;-)

Actually I was playing with a guitarist that had two Fralin's in his PRS Custom 22 Soapbar LTD, one at the neck and the other in the middle. At the bridge he had a DiMarzio ToneZone P-90. That's because he usually uses Duncan JBs. But I thought the Fralin's sounded great. They are like the lower wind P-90s. They didn't sound at all like a Strat.

But the P-90s I had in a Gibson ES-330TD did sound a lot like a Strat, just fuller. It wasn't that 70's SG honk from the 9k P-90s.

I'm working on some guitar pickup designs, and two of them are Strat and P-90 sidewinders. I'll let you know how I do.

Somewhere I have a really odd old DeArmond big ass pickup I think is a sidewinder, but its not humcancelling, should dig it out, it has huge masses of steel in it and big thick pole screws, maybe some ideas in that...

I'd like to see that.

[Possum]

Sorry the Fralins make me grit my teeth, I want to get as far away from that sound as I can; go watch the Youtbe video, they are borderline shrill. Yes, old P90's can really sound strattish thats true. I dug out the old DeArmond, its the same design I'm using unfortunately but with only one coil. Huge steel core, huge alnico magnet glued to the core, unfortunately its dead but probably was on the bright side maybe, but it does have really fat screw poles so hard to tell for sure. Wait! Just got a reading off it, 5.7K its too big to try out in anything though, I'll plug in somehow and try to get a feel for it. Kinda pointless though, the core and magnets are probably fully half an inch thick. If I get time I'll take a shot of it and post it....

Just took an Extech reading, this thing is gonna be bright, its only 1.9 henries and 7.5K ACR. Its a rare one, I've never actually seen it on any guitar before....

[fieldwrangler]

Fellas...

I gotta say that despite my use of a nice Duncan '59 as a reference for a "pretty normal pickup" there's really something about conventional humbuckers that bugs me, and sidewinders (or P90's) don't suffer from this syndrome. In fact, this stuff that Mike Sulzer is looking closely at in another thread (the notchiness resulting from 2 primary pickup points) is likely the cause of the somewhat anomalous response that I feel when playing them. Clearly some of the greatest guitar playing there ever will be has been funneled through these kindof interpretive transducers, so I know it's kindof Just Me, but still... I seem to recall Yngvey Malmsteen saying something about this in an interview years ago; something about not liking an aspect of 'buckers that he described as a "split" sound.

This having been said, last week I wound a set of the kindof guitar humbuckers I used to make in the 90's (which have a twist on the magnetics but do have 2 coils in the usual orientation.) I'll admit that some of the reason was that someone is threatening to release a recording of Brazilian fusion-ish stuff that I played on a long time ago so I listened to it and I was kindof digging the half-distorted neck 'bucker thing in that context.

Bob Palmieri

[David Schwab]

Sorry the Fralins make me grit my teeth, I want to get as far away from that sound as I can; go watch the Youtbe video, they are borderline shrill. Yes, old P90's can really sound strattish thats true.

I don't have to watch a YouTube video because I heard the pickups in person on a weekly basis for a while. They weren't shrill. It must be the way those people had their amps set. Through a Fender Twin they sounded very nice, and certainly sounded better than the PRS P-90s that came with the guitar.

But it's not hard to warm up a sidewinder, and even make them dark sounding if that's what you want. I mean, look at the Gibson mudbucker!

[fieldwrangler]

I don't have to watch a YouTube video because I heard the pickups in person on a weekly basis for a while. They weren't shrill. It must be the way those people had their amps set. Through a Fender Twin they sounded very nice, and certainly sounded better than the PRS P-90s that came with the guitar.

But it's hard hard to warm up a sidewinder, and even make them dark sounding if that's what you want. I mean, look at the Gibson mudbucker!

I assume you mean "it's not hard to warm up a sidewinder"...

In one of my main axes ('65 Melody Maker w/surface mount sidewinder in the neck position and box mount sidewinder in the bridge) the top end of the neck pickup has a beautiful transparency due to the very high resonant frequency, and when I want more "focus" & "ring" I pop in a small parallel cap with the push-pull volume knob.

Bob Palmieri

[David Schwab]

I assume you mean "it's not hard to warm up a sidewinder"...

Ummm yeah! Typing too fast.

In one of my main axes ('65 Melody Maker w/surface mount sidewinder in the neck position and box mount sidewinder in the bridge) the top end of the neck pickup has a beautiful transparency due to the very high resonant frequency, and when I want more "focus" & "ring" I pop in a small parallel cap with the push-pull volume knob.

That's one way of doing it. I've been making bass sidewinders for almost two years now. I've spent a lot of time on the Jazz bass version, and really found you can get a lot of different tones out of them just by changing how much wire you wind, and also the gauge of wire. There's a few ways to do sidewinders too, such as magnets in the coils, or steel in the coils, and then central magnets, flanking magnets, etc. They each have their own tone.

As soon as I get some orders out of the way I'm going to start working on Strat and humbucker sized guitar sidewinders.

[fieldwrangler]

While we're on the subjects, what range of inductances have we all measured in various P90's?

Also, d'we feel that if Dave wants a sidewinder that sounds P90-ish he should shoot for similar inductances?

[fieldwrangler]

That's one way of doing it. I've been making bass sidewinders for almost two years now. I've spent a lot of time on the Jazz bass version, and really found you can get a lot of different tones out of them just by changing how much wire you wind, and also the gauge of wire. There's a few ways to do sidewinders too, such as magnets in the coils, or steel in the coils, and then central magnets, flanking magnets, etc. They each have their own tone.

Also, I now have different sidewinders running on Neos, Samarium Cobalts, Ceramics, Alnicos & rubber flex-mag. Admittedly, the choice often comes down to the convenience of using one over the other due to where they are in the circuit, but manipulating inductance has often entered into the decision.

[David Schwab]

While we're on the subjects, what range of inductances have we all measured in various P90's?

Also, d'we feel that if Dave wants a sidewinder that sounds P90-ish he should shoot for similar inductances?

I was thinking about the same thing. Maybe, but maybe not.

[David Schwab]

Also, I now have different sidewinders running on Neos, Samarium Cobalts, Ceramics, Alnicos & rubber flex-mag. Admittedly, the choice often comes down to the convenience of using one over the other due to where they are in the circuit, but manipulating inductance has often entered into the decision.

I mostly use ceramics, but just started using neos. Some of that is because of the tone I want, based on the rest of the circuit, and some is based on the size of the pickup. So those things determine where I'm putting the magnet, and then what kind of magnet. But as you alluded to, there are many combinations possible.

[Possum]

Dave the mudbucker is a huge pickup, you can't get all that stuff into a soap bar cover. Thats the problem. Anyway, I didn't do anything with it this weekend, maybe try to fit into this coming week's work drudgery.

Bob, yes buckers have two tones, the PAF LP guys call it double notes. What it actually is, is that the slug coil is really bright and cutting because the fast magnetic circuit with the short fat slugs, its the main tone of any bucker. The pole screw side is the warm sound, the long skinny screws and the pole keeper slowing it all down, that coil is a smooth warmish sound. With a well made PAF you can literally hear both coils in the single notes, each voice, on certain spots in the neck, usually higher up. EVH knew about it and called the two coils bass and treble, not quite accurate but he knew what he was hearing. If you turn the pickup around it changes the sound because then you got the slug coil listening to a different part of the string etc. so Peter Green's flipped around neck actually sounds different that way.

As for P90s and a sidewinder, I haven't seen one pull that off yet. Fralins is bright and cutting but not like a P90 at all. This old DeArmond has a full half inch thick pole keeper core and a huge half inch thick alnico bar magnet, and huge fat solid pole screws. Yet its very bright with low inductance and AC resistance nowhere near a P90. A P90 gets much of its fatness because its a very wide squat coil, just the fact the coil is very wide really makes it warm since you got the outer part of the coil that is getting very little magnetic flux moving through it. I could easily darken the pickup alot with thinner wire and alot of winds but one of the cool things about P90's is the transparency of 42 gauge PE, you lose that if you go thinner. BTW inductance isn't a good guide anyway, AC resistance tells you more than henrys do.

Gibson made a noiseless P90 by putting two full P90 builds on top of eachother, its an awful pickup, horribly dark and lifeless, thing weighs a ton too.

[David Schwab]

Dave the mudbucker is a huge pickup, you can't get all that stuff into a soap bar cover. Thats the problem.

I didn't say put a mudbucker in a P-90 cover. But don't use P-90 size coils either. I make sidewinders that fit sidewinders in Jazz bass and Strat covers covers. I make them that fit in humbucker covers.

A P-90 is 1.125" wide. That's plenty of room.

[fieldwrangler]

Bob, yes buckers have two tones, the PAF LP guys call it double notes. What it actually is, is that the slug coil is really bright and cutting because the fast magnetic circuit with the short fat slugs, its the main tone of any bucker. The pole screw side is the warm sound, the long skinny screws and the pole keeper slowing it all down, that coil is a smooth warmish sound. With a well made PAF you can literally hear both coils in the single notes, each voice, on certain spots in the neck, usually higher up. EVH knew about it and called the two coils bass and treble, not quite accurate but he knew what he was hearing. If you turn the pickup around it changes the sound because then you got the slug coil listening to a different part of the string etc. so Peter Green's flipped around neck actually sounds different that way.

Dave -

This stuff about slow & fast magnetic fields is new territory to me; i might hafta dig in and learn what up with this kindof thing.

Bob Palmieri

[David Schwab]

This stuff about slow & fast magnetic fields is new territory to me; i might hafta dig in and learn what up with this kindof thing.

I think the only thing that's going on is the screw and slug bobbins have a different amount of steel in the cores, so the inductance is different. The static magnetic field is not slow or fast.

The magnetic circuit is pretty much the same, except if you have long screws you are "losing" some of it put the back. That makes that coil sound weaker. Seth Lover didn't want that, but that's what they ended up with. You can cut the backs of the screws flush with the back plate (or use shorter screws) and it alters the tone of that coil. I think it sounds better with the two coils more in balance.

If you look at a DiMarzio PAF, the slugs are actually the same shape and size as the screws. So they are flat top slugs with thinner shafts. They did this to balance the two coils. Then they added extra steel slugs between the slugs and screws from the back to increase the inductance. It's a cool way to fine tune the coils.

If you look at a Filter'Tron compared to a PAF, you can see that the 'Tron has balanced coils.

[fieldwrangler]

I think the only thing that's going on is the screw and slug bobbins have a different amount of steel in the cores, so the inductance is different. The static magnetic field is not slow or fast.

Cool; this much I get.

The magnetic circuit is pretty much the same, except if you have long screws you are "losing" some of it put the back. That makes that coil sound weaker. Seth Lover didn't want that, but that's what they ended up with. You can cut the backs of the screws flush with the back plate (or use shorter screws) and it alters the tone of that coil. I think it sounds better with the two coils more in balance.

If you look at a DiMarzio PAF, the slugs are actually the same shape and size as the screws. So they are flat top slugs with thinner shafts. They did this to balance the two coils. Then they added extra steel slugs between the slugs and screws from the back to increase the inductance. It's a cool way to fine tune the coils.

If you look at a Filter'Tron compared to a PAF, you can see that the 'Tron has balanced coils.

I tend to be a balanced-coil type myself.