New Mojotone Butyrate humbucker bobbins. How accurate are they ?

[Possum]

Belwar, what good does it do to know this stuff? It IS useful and is history! No, I can't do all of it yet, but I did want to KNOW how things were done and what processes produced those results. Maybe some rich guy will dump a ton of money in my lap and say here go do it, (yeah sure, lol...). I'm not going to cross a certain line of information so basically I've already shared what I will. Go find my posts on vintage wire, I did share a bit of info there, those standards from books don't show what actually was DONE, (thanks for posting that info BTW), in that exact time period; (Its like the alnico "recipe" charts you find online, no one actually makes it that way, they all use proprietary mixes).. It doesn't show that copper during that time wasn't as pure as they use now. Techniques used now in wire making are noticeably different, Elektrisola's guy wrote several long emails in answer to my questions about those differences, based on the tests he did and former knowledge; he was just as interested in testing the old stuff as I was. The only thing he told me that I don't quite believe is that he thinks the wire insulation hasn't changed since then. That doesn't sound right from what I've seen in PAF's and modern wire, he also said the insulation makers won't tell you what they are doing, so there's really no way to find out what changed. There is a technique one could use that would make modern wire a little more correct that you could do, but personally haven't done it and it'd be a major pain in the butt as well. The lab sheet I posted above is from modern wire, so those figures mean nothing until you compare them to the vintage samples.

Mostly I want to get across that there is a deeper level to vintage steel knowledge, I only got there by luck; I had thought we'd gone over everything with a fine tooth comb, then some new part I'd send in (old part actually) would prompmt more questions from me and suddenly the answers I got made me back track and go over what we'd done before.

One of the biggest surprises out of all this is that Gibson actually DID use electrical steel in one of their products, shocked me and shocked him. I may be reproducing that particular product at some point and already have two big chunks custom made electrical steel that was ridiculously expensive from about five years ago. Joe Gwinn back then theorized that Gibson used electrical steel, previous to my first chemical analysis tests that I invited Jon to participate in as well as one of my tone chaser customers funded the third portion. So I bought some and had 1/4" electrical rod centerless ground down to slug diameter, and bought some plate for keepers. It was an interesting an expensive experience but the results were too soft sounding, and the resulting pickups didn't sell well. Still, of the few who bought them I still get an occasional email saying how much they're still enjoying them. The only reason I mention this now is because it was a dead end and I don't use that stuff in any of my products, but it WAS a real valuable experience to see what that material actualy does in a pickup.

[David Schwab]

I wonder if we are supplying this to mojotone through some sort of distribution?

No, but you are probably supplying some company that injection molds pickup parts which Mojo then sells as a dealer.

[Fuzzy Logic]

........ The lab sheet I posted above is from modern wire, so those figures mean nothing until you compare them to the vintage samples.

........

Hello Mr. Stephens,

In this post Mythbusters Vintage Magnet Wire. you stated the following:

"Vintage wire differs from modern in ohms per foot. For example some later period PAF wire was 1.876 ohms per foot. A nearly identical modern wire, the new black wire from Elektrisola measures 1.702 ohms per foot."

It is obvious that the lab sheet you posted describes the Elektrisola wire (having a diameter of 0.00244"). I do not expect you to give away all the details, but while you describe this Elektrisola wire as being "nearly identical" is it then the correct interpretation of your statement that later period PAF wire measured 1.876 Ohms/foot while having a diameter of more than 0.0024 ?

[belwar]

Hi all. I'm not a builder, but an avid guitarist and scientist.

First off, I love how much you guys are getting into the details on these pickups to try and create all of the elusive holy grail tones. It is awesome that you're all so passionate about your crafts.

Secondly, just wanted to pipe in that as I scientist for Dow I know we make 'butyrate plastic'... which I believe is just cellulose acetate butyrate plastic, right? I wonder if we are supplying this to mojotone through some sort of distribution? We don't sell anything in small volumes so I assume it is through some distribution. If you don't want a tank car worth of something, we pass on it!

Very interesting post. Cheers! :-)

So here is my question.. does dow OFFER butyrate plastic, or MAKE butyrate plastic? One of the problems we faced when buying the plastic with eastman is that they offered 52 different butyrates, but they only produced 2 or 3 versions for stock. You had to buy material by the Ton to get any of the others made. A Ton of plastic is more than I could use in six lifetimes. Can you get some dow part numbers?

[JGundry]

Hello Mr. Stephens,

In this post Mythbusters Vintage Magnet Wire. you stated the following:

"Vintage wire differs from modern in ohms per foot. For example some later period PAF wire was 1.876 ohms per foot. A nearly identical modern wire, the new black wire from Elektrisola measures 1.702 ohms per foot."

It is obvious that the lab sheet you posted describes the Elektrisola wire (having a diameter of 0.00244"). I do not expect you to give away all the details, but while you describe this Elektrisola wire as being "nearly identical" is it then the correct interpretation of your statement that later period PAF wire measured 1.876 Ohms/foot while having a diameter of more than 0.0024 ?

The problem with this data is the vintage wire tested came from wound pickups. In the case of Gibson, the wire has run through probably two felt tensioners and some pretty severe angles under tension without the help of a roller guide, particularly in the case of P90's. So basically you are dealing with fairly stressed wire and the the data is probably useless unless it is compared to modern production wire run through the same winders and then unwound from a pickup.

[Reza]

So here is my question.. does dow OFFER butyrate plastic, or MAKE butyrate plastic? One of the problems we faced when buying the plastic with eastman is that they offered 52 different butyrates, but they only produced 2 or 3 versions for stock. You had to buy material by the Ton to get any of the others made. A Ton of plastic is more than I could use in six lifetimes. Can you get some dow part numbers?

That is a really good question. I checked and saw it on a log for an internal sheet... but that doesn't necessarily mean we are making it right now. Unless we have a big customer (i.e., how many tons do you want?) we sell directly to distribution companies that then sell to third parties to sell product to smaller suppliers.

Let me see if I can track this down with some Dow part numbers. That is sometimes easier said than done with such a massive company.

[Fuzzy Logic]

The problem with this data is the vintage wire tested came from wound pickups. In the case of Gibson, the wire has run through probably two felt tensioners and some pretty severe angles under tension without the help of a roller guide, particularly in the case of P90's. So basically you are dealing with fairly stressed wire and the the data is probably useless unless it is compared to modern production wire run through the same winders and then unwound from a pickup.

Yes, sure, I understand that the wire during winding is stressed and that wire which measures as being AWG 42 on the spool may have changed in diameter and Ohms/foot after it has been wound on the bobbin.

But my point is that the Ohms/foot of a copper wire usually has a strong correlation with the diameter of the wire. If one knows the Ohms/foot at a given diameter A, then it is easy to calculate the Ohms/foot for another diameter B (or alternatively, if the diameter B is known one can calculate the Ohms/foot for that specific diameter). Mr. Stephens indicated in his "Mythbusters" post that the DCR of 1.876 Ohm/foot implied that vintage wire was different from modern wire. So what I am interested in is if this DCR value corresponds to a diameter which is smaller or larger than 0.0024". If the diameter is 0.0024" or more then yes, the data on itself would not be very useful unless someone who has the same winder up and running would be willing to carry out an experiment as you describe above in order to validate the data of Mr. Stephens.

[JGundry]

If the diameter is 0.0024" or more then yes, the data on itself would not be very useful unless someone who has the same winder up and running would be willing to carry out an experiment as you describe above in order to validate the data of Mr. Stephens.

Ummmmm, actually I do have one original vintage Gibson winder from the 50's and two other vintage machine models up and running that Gibson used. And I have duplicated their custom traverse on the P90 winder Gibson used and I can tell you right now the wire gets very stressed with the P90 winder. But honestly I stopped sharing data with Dave a long time ago and I don't think either of us want to do more data sharing.

[Fuzzy Logic]

Ummmmm, actually I do have one original vintage Gibson winder from the 50's and two other vintage machine models up and running that Gibson used. And I have duplicated their custom traverse on the P90 winder Gibson used and I can tell you right now the wire gets very stressed with the P90 winder. But honestly I stopped sharing data with Dave a long time ago and I don't think either of us want to do more data sharing.

Ok, fair enough. It was worth the try.

[Possum]

The wire in the lab sheet is not Elektrisola, it is just modern wire, two different manufacturers, made since 2000. The wire diameters in the lab sheet are measured with lasers, you don't get those kinds of results with hand / digital micrometers so my measurements don't match theirs, and also note that there is a "bare wire" measurement there meaning no insulation. And yep, the other important stuff isn't on the sheet and came via email and won't be discussed. Can't comment on what Jon said without revealing other things. Duncan owns the original Gibson winder that PAF's were wound on, its just a winder and thats all it is. The most important thing is how many turns per layer were used, every one I dissected were the same, except one that was probably from '65. I have a '65 set coming in this week, it seems for a brief period then the used plain enamel for some odd reason, were they noticing things changing too much, or did they run out of poly coated wire and forced to buy a short run of the more expensive stuff?

[Fuzzy Logic]

The wire in the lab sheet is not Elektrisola, it is just modern wire, two different manufacturers, made since 2000. The wire diameters in the lab sheet are measured with lasers, you don't get those kinds of results with hand / digital micrometers so my measurements don't match theirs, and also note that there is a "bare wire" measurement there meaning no insulation. And yep, the other important stuff isn't on the sheet and came via email and won't be discussed. Can't comment on what Jon said without revealing other things. Duncan owns the original Gibson winder that PAF's were wound on, its just a winder and thats all it is. The most important thing is how many turns per layer were used, every one I dissected were the same, except one that was probably from '65. I have a '65 set coming in this week, it seems for a brief period then the used plain enamel for some odd reason, were they noticing things changing too much, or did they run out of poly coated wire and forced to buy a short run of the more expensive stuff?

Hello Dave,

Ok, I understand and respect that you, Jon and others need to restrain yourselves where it comes to posting certain details and information in order to protect your businesses, designs and investments. I have no problem with that.

I, on the other hand, am just trying to figure out certain details or have details confirmed for my own personal amusement and education on the subject of the puzzle called P.A.F. So initially I took the passive approach and gathered what I wanted to know from a huge number of postings and information in several places and then tried to put everything together.

But I am now at a point where it would be useful to receive some comments on my findings and thoughts on the subject. And because of the lack of commercial interest in my case, I have no problem of posting/sharing detailed information (such as my thoughts on bobbin dimensions, TPL, etc.).

Posting the bobbin dimensions I have attempted to recreate, accompanied by a short explanation of how I did it, would be more or less on topic, although I obviously can not claim that these dimensions are vintage correct or if they are accurate at all since, for one thing, no vintage P.A.F.'s were harmed in this process.

So now the question is, and I am not specifically asking this to you (only); should a person like me impose the same restraints on him/herself as the people who make a living out of manufacturing pickups where it comes to posting certain detailed information or questions ?

Pieter

[soundmasterg]

Then wolfe, I stand humbly corrected - I had no idea that was the case. That was a nice read to see you sharing that info back then. Well done sir!

bel.

A lot of people don't know it but you can thank Wolfe and Jason in a large way for getting suppliers to provide pickup parts for sale. Since I first met Wolfe in the mid 90's he was working on this and he and Jason used to work really closely together on some of it until Jason's business took off in a big way. I would bet they still work together on some things that rightly remain under the radar knowing those two.

Greg

[Possum]

Sure you can post anything you want on the subject of PAF's you think is right, but in my experience what most think they know about PAF's is wrong. I've seen crazy stuff from collectors claiming to be authorities on the subject, like brass covers were used, stainless steel covers were used, etc. etc. To the average layperson a raw nickel silver cover looks like stainless steel because of the straight grain, where they got the idea brass covers were used is beyond me. As for bobbins, I can tell you there was not only one set of molds, there were 3 or 4 supposedly, if not there was one that was constantly being altered, there are edition numbers on the cores of all PAF's, I've been keeping track of those numbers and the year the pickups date from. Its about impossible to get accurate dimensions without removing all the wire, just measuring the pole holes tells you nothing of use.

Yeah, personally I owe Jason big time. I started when you couldn't really buy much of this stuff at all and he and his book taught me how to make things from scratch with Forbon, a router and drill press and associated gear. He very patiently answered my constant questions. I learned to build from him but making anything that sounded good was completely self taught through experiments, experience. There are several winders who learned from him that give him no credit. You learn way more by doing it his old school way than by just buying and assembling parts that are already thought out for you. I had a real hard time learning from his book, I had never used a router, table saw, band saw etc. and was trying to learn everything at once, living in a crappy little apartment and working at night in a tiny garage on the complex in freezing cold. Wife's dying father bought all the tools for me and I went at it nonstop from day one. Now, I have a small machine shop and have been making and trying all kinds of alloys and experiments, I love the experimental side of this, you can be very creative with endless ideas..

[Jim Shine]

I assume Jason is Jason Lollar? If so, I owe him as well. I bought his book in the 90's. I had a local guy doing my refins and rewinds. First I went and learned to do the refins from Bryan Galloup. Then I tackled the rewinds using his book. I never built that machine as outlined, but the theory contained in the book gave me a foundation to work with.

[RedHouse]

... should a person like me impose the same restraints on him/herself as the people who make a living out of manufacturing pickups where it comes to posting certain detailed information or questions ...

{edited to take-er-down a notch}

Well that's "the" question isn't it?

The answer (for the rest of the forum) is likely you're either part of the solution, or part of the problem. The solution people want to know, the problem people want to be the keepers of the secrets.

Both groups want to post all over here about how their particular knowledge/fact/data/here-say is "the" real deal while not actually posting anything factual/verify'able at all. Breadcrumbs, tidbits, inuendo, etc. Of course the standard x'cuse for withholding actual knowledge/fact/data (after posting they know it) is the gray, and highly unlikely, aspect that someone might read it here and out-market them, make themselves the next LarryD/SeyourD etc.

After all, it's more than just making a good pickup, it's the marketing that gets one the golden ring. There are ton of guys out there that can make a killer pickup w/o all the BS about butyrate and copper alloy, but then, what else is going to set apart the JGundry's and DaveStephens of the world, yep, MARKETING
(cough, cough, hyperbole)

No offense to JG or DS intended.

All the posts over the years, not specifically JG and DS alone but just as an inclusive example, like when DS (says) he has the "secret" alchemy and the word-up from "some guy" (always un-named BTW) and his PAF is the real deal, bobbin dimensions, screws etc, ... and for example JG on the other hand has the the old machines Gibson used, his own bobbin recipie and mfr'ing, also has the word-up from "some other guy" (again un-named) and other bobbin dimensions, screws, etc but aren't the same, but neither can really say because that would be giving away the farm.

PAF makers often dismissing each others point-of-pride aspects of what they feel makes them "the" maker of real PAFs.
(while both actutually make repro's)

Many dismiss everyone else's work as they haven't got "the right stuff" to get the sound, specially if you use brand-A or brand-S parts, but if you use brand-G or brand-M well that ok ...but... you'll never get there because you don't have true original spec plastic/metal etc.

So then it's back to you Fuzz, you part of the problem, or part of the solution?
(only you can decide that)