Fiber flatwork vs plastic bobbin.

[Alan0354]

Anyone actually compare the difference is sound between fiber fretwork with magnetic poles actually touch the wires vs plastic bobbin like used in Fender MIA pups and Tex Mex? I am talking about all else are identical, same winding pattern, same type of wire and same gauge. I know people keep saying fiber is better, but they usually use cheaper wires for the plastic bobbin.

Being an engineer, I find it hard to swallow that there is a difference if the plastic bobbin is designed so the wires can touch the magnetic poles like the fiber fretwork. It can be easily done.

[Steve Conner]

Being an engineer, the best thing you can do is probably stay away from the Pickup Makers forum! ;-)

As one engineer to another, I'd be mighty surprised if there is a difference. I'm sure pickup makers can hear a difference, and I probably would too. But there are so many uncontrolled variables, the difference is probably caused by something else than what we think. Different shape of coil, different scatter, whatever. Not the different electrical properties of forbon and nylon.

[big_teee]

Being an engineer, the best thing you can do is probably stay away from the Pickup Makers forum! ;-)

As one engineer to another, I'd be mighty surprised if there is a difference. I'm sure pickup makers can hear a difference, and I probably would too. But there are so many uncontrolled variables, the difference is probably caused by something else than what we think. Different shape of coil, different scatter, whatever. Not the different electrical properties of forbon and nylon.

The only difference that I see, is the spacing of the plastic.
Most of us don't wind right on the magnets anyway.
I use spray Lacquer, then put a layer of thin tape over the magnets, so the wire doesn't short to the magnets.
Also there is not as much winding area on the plastic bobbins.
On a Strat Bobbin the winding area is limited because of the cover that has to go over the bobbin.
Good Luck,
Terry

[tmenss]

Coil shape within the bobbin has intrigued me. though some bobbins may be taller or shorter how come the coil itself is wound flat? The lines of magnetic flux aren't straight so wouldn't there be a benefit in putting the highest number of coil winds into the greatest number or density of flux lines? And back to Allan's question, perhaps platics bobbins would allow us to experiment with that idea to some degree. By moving the tops of the magnet further into the bobbin or vice versa push the bottoms of the magnets into the bobbin to see if there is any change. Maybe by matching the traditional alignment of fiber bobbins we've failed to explore a potential benefit of plastic bobbins?

[big_teee]

Coil shape within the bobbin has intrigued me. though some bobbins may be taller or shorter how come the coil itself is wound flat? The lines of magnetic flux aren't straight so wouldn't there be a benefit in putting the highest number of coil winds into the greatest number or density of flux lines? And back to Allan's question, perhaps platics bobbins would allow us to experiment with that idea to some degree. By moving the tops of the magnet further into the bobbin or vice versa push the bottoms of the magnets into the bobbin to see if there is any change. Maybe by matching the traditional alignment of fiber bobbins we've failed to explore a potential benefit of plastic bobbins?

What you can not vary in a plastic bobbin is winding area bobbin Height.
Done a lot of experimenting with this.
If you wind 2 bobbins to 6k dcr on different height Forbon bobbins.
The tallest one will be brighter, than the shorter fatter one.
By varying the bobbin height, you can tune the pickup to the pickup position.
A Shorter fatter bobbin in the bridge position, will not be as bright an shrill sounding as a taller thinner bobbin.
Theses adjustments can't be made on a fixed plastic bobbin.
I recommend trying both ways.
That is the advantages of Hand Winding.
You can experiment with the individual pickup in the individual Guitar.
Good Luck,
B_T

[tmenss]

What you can not vary in a plastic bobbin is winding area bobbin Height.
Done a lot of experimenting with this.
If you wind 2 bobbins to 6k dcr on different height Forbon bobbins.
The tallest one will be brighter, than the shorter fatter one.
By varying the bobbin height, you can tune the pickup to the pickup position.
A Shorter fatter bobbin in the bridge position, will not be as bright an shrill sounding as a taller thinner bobbin.
Theses adjustments can't be made on a fixed plastic bobbin.
I recommend trying both ways.
That is the advantages of Hand Winding.
You can experiment with the individual pickup in the individual Guitar.
Good Luck,
B_T

Thanks for sharing your winding experience. With the fixed coil dimensions of the plastic bobbins, ali the more interesting to see if anyone has altered the coil position relative to the tops of the magnets. My hypothesis is that lowering the tops of the magnets into the coil form would fatten the sound of a thin trebly pickup. I don't make pickups but what's available in the market place for plastic bobbined pickups w/alnico? I may have ceramic coils that I could fit alnicos into (of course after modding them by removing the ceramic and exisiting slugs). Thanks again

[Mike Sulzer]

The flux that counts is the flux from the vibrating magnetized string. It tends to come down from the coil, but diverges away the further it goes down. So keeping more turns closer to the string could give a bit more output since enclosing the flux by the wire loops is what counts for output.

Coil shape within the bobbin has intrigued me. though some bobbins may be taller or shorter how come the coil itself is wound flat? The lines of magnetic flux aren't straight so wouldn't there be a benefit in putting the highest number of coil winds into the greatest number or density of flux lines? And back to Allan's question, perhaps platics bobbins would allow us to experiment with that idea to some degree. By moving the tops of the magnet further into the bobbin or vice versa push the bottoms of the magnets into the bobbin to see if there is any change. Maybe by matching the traditional alignment of fiber bobbins we've failed to explore a potential benefit of plastic bobbins?

[Alan0354]

What you can not vary in a plastic bobbin is winding area bobbin Height.
Done a lot of experimenting with this.
If you wind 2 bobbins to 6k dcr on different height Forbon bobbins.
The tallest one will be brighter, than the shorter fatter one.
By varying the bobbin height, you can tune the pickup to the pickup position.
A Shorter fatter bobbin in the bridge position, will not be as bright an shrill sounding as a taller thinner bobbin.
Theses adjustments can't be made on a fixed plastic bobbin.
I recommend trying both ways.
That is the advantages of Hand Winding.
You can experiment with the individual pickup in the individual Guitar.
Good Luck,
B_T

This is not the limitation of the plastic bobbin. You can always make plastic bobbins with different aspect ratio. It is not an inherent to the plastic. Most of the fiber pups of the same set have the same dimension, not as if they are different, so that is not even an issue of concern.

What I cannot accept is people keep thinking fiber bobbins are always better.........they even glorify the cloth wires which is even more ridiculous. I know some people wind with cheaper non fawar wire on the plastic bobbin, of cause you get different sound. But that is because the coating is thinner and the inter winding capacitance is higher.

[Alan0354]

The flux that counts is the flux from the vibrating magnetized string. It tends to come down from the coil, but diverges away the further it goes down. So keeping more turns closer to the string could give a bit more output since enclosing the flux by the wire loops is what counts for output.

the inter winding capacitance is higher with short coil like the Jazz Master. The winding are on top of each other where the capacitance is higher. On a tall coil, winding don't lay on top of each other as much, so less capacitance between windings. Tele pups is the ultimate example of a tall and thin pup that give the stinging sound.

[Mike Sulzer]

the inter winding capacitance is higher with short coil like the Jazz Master. The winding are on top of each other where the capacitance is higher. On a tall coil, winding don't lay on top of each other as much, so less capacitance between windings. Tele pups is the ultimate example of a tall and thin pup that give the stinging sound.

But the tail cannot wag the dog very much. In this case the tail is the winding capacitance and the dog is the cable capacitance. The latter is a lot bigger, and although changes in the former can make a difference, it is not very big.

The inductance changes due to altering the shape of the winding are more important. There is no other larger inductance around, and the arrangement of the winding has a significant effect on the flux coupling.

[big_teee]

This is not the limitation of the plastic bobbin. You can always make plastic bobbins with different aspect ratio. It is not an inherent to the plastic. Most of the fiber pups of the same set have the same dimension, not as if they are different, so that is not even an issue of concern.

What I cannot accept is people keep thinking fiber bobbins are always better.........they even glorify the cloth wires which is even more ridiculous. I know some people wind with cheaper non fawar wire on the plastic bobbin, of cause you get different sound. But that is because the coating is thinner and the inter winding capacitance is higher.

You can only vary a plastic bobbin height, If you can make your own bobbins.
I was strictly talking about the commercial bobbins that you can buy.
If you are going to make your own bobbin, why bother, it would be easier to just use the pre-made Forbon flatwork bobbins.
I buy all my ready made forbon bobbins at Mojo.
Strat
I agree with you alan on the wire.
If I am making something for a 60s period I do the cloth wire.
If I am making 70s period Grey Bottom Pickups I use Plastic wire.
A lot of the time that is dictated by the Customer.
In my Area It is hard for me to sell black bottom Strat Pickups.
They think the Grey Bottoms sound better.
If you want PE Wire I charge extra for that, because it is more expensive, and Harder to use IMO.
So Alan, are you making your own bobbins, or is this just a Hypothetical?
Guitar Pickup Bobbins - Guitar Parts USA
Good Luck,
Terry

[Alan0354]

You can only vary a plastic bobbin height, If you can make your own bobbins.
I was strictly talking about the commercial bobbins that you can buy.
If you are going to make your own bobbin, why bother, it would be easier to just use the pre-made Forbon flatwork bobbins.
I buy all my ready made forbon bobbins at Mojo.
Strat
I agree with you alan on the wire.
If I am making something for a 60s period I do the cloth wire.
If I am making 70s period Grey Bottom Pickups I use Plastic wire.
A lot of the time that is dictated by the Customer.
In my Area It is hard for me to sell black bottom Strat Pickups.
They think the Grey Bottoms sound better.
If you want PE Wire I charge extra for that, because it is more expensive, and Harder to use IMO.
So Alan, are you making your own bobbins, or is this just a Hypothetical?
Guitar Pickup Bobbins - Guitar Parts USA
Good Luck,
Terry

Thanks, no, I don't do pups at all, I am just an engineer that is curious. And I like to debunk a lot of the myth!!!!

[tmenss]

The flux that counts is the flux from the vibrating magnetized string. It tends to come down from the coil, but diverges away the further it goes down. So keeping more turns closer to the string could give a bit more output since enclosing the flux by the wire loops is what counts for output.

Not trying to argue, just comparing it to theory, but the firs part doesn't quite fit well with me because the flux generated by the magnetized string is being picked up by the coils? I still think the string mass and its magnetic permeability altering the flux lines of the magnet theory holds up to arguement better. Are the magnetized string "pickups" current sensing pickups? Whereas the current magnet coil pickups are generating ac voltages?

I'll probably move my questions to another thread so as not to hijack the OP's question on plastic bobbins, Mike, hope we can discuss this further on a differnt thread, thanks

[Alan0354]

But the tail cannot wag the dog very much. In this case the tail is the winding capacitance and the dog is the cable capacitance. The latter is a lot bigger, and although changes in the former can make a difference, it is not very big.

The inductance changes due to altering the shape of the winding are more important. There is no other larger inductance around, and the arrangement of the winding has a significant effect on the flux coupling.

According to EM, inductance is govern mainly by number of turns and the area between the turn. Yes, large area of the outer turn of a flat bobbin has more inductance. You think that is the reason. I still feel the inner winding capacitance is as important. But maybe you have a point that if you have a flat coil, the capacitance distribution flat and effect is almost the same as a tall coil as it distribute the capacitance vertically rather horizontally.

That may be a very good point because people do talk about capacitance effecting the tone.

[Alan0354]

Not trying to argue, just comparing it to theory, but the firs part doesn't quite fit well with me because the flux generated by the magnetized string is being picked up by the coils? I still think the string mass and its magnetic permeability altering the flux lines of the magnet theory holds up to arguement better. Are the magnetized string "pickups" current sensing pickups? Whereas the current magnet coil pickups are generating ac voltages?

I'll probably move my questions to another thread so as not to hijack the OP's question on plastic bobbins, Mike, hope we can discuss this further on a differnt thread, thanks

I read articles the way it works. The magnetic pole magnetize the little portion of the string right on top of the pole. Then when the string vibrates, the little induced magnet of the string move and generate a magnetic field that the coil pickup just like a moving magnet.