Fiber flatwork vs plastic bobbin.

[tmenss]

I read articles the way it works. The magnetic pole magnetize the little portion of the string right on top of the pole. Then when the string vibrates, the little induced magnet of the string move and generate a magnetic field that the coil pickup just like a moving magnet.

What does the myth buster in you think about that?

[Alan0354]

What does the myth buster in you think about that?

I think it make sense, a moving magnet generate mag field. You hardly pickup the strings if you use an air coil or even a non magnetized ferromagnetic slug poles. The magnet turn the strings into a electrical generator.

[big_teee]

With all Due Respect, how can you myth bust something, that you don't do,or Know nothing about.
Now if You have a theory, then through practical application you may debunk, or disprove, or prove Your own point.
However all you are doing is Arguing about something, and proving nothing!
Good Luck with that.
Terry

[Alan0354]

That's the reason I ask about this here. Just because I don't make pup don't exclude me from the theory. I spent years studying electromagnetics and I think I have a good sense of what make sense and what's not. Pickup is the very essence of Magnetic. In fact I think too many people that work of pickups don't know a thing about electromagnetics.

Just like the fretwork, it does not make sense for people saying the fiber is superior. You may go by people's demand because of their misconception, but don't say they are different unless you have controlled proof.

[copperheadroads]

The main difference between a forbon & plastic bobbin strat pickup is distance between the wire & the magnets
If you cut a plastic bobbin in two to separate the top & the bottom ,You will see there is quite a bit of plastic ,Compared to tape or a coat of lacquer like on a traditional style bobbin
The main difference in tone is the forbon style pup will be more dynamic in every way .I find that plastic bobbin pickups sound a little bland

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

The praises I've heard for fiber flatwork and cloth wire has been primarily for the aesthetics and for workability. A lot of techs love the push-back thing on the cloth wire. For some consumers it is also a sign of other cares being taken. What was the band that wanted the m&m's separated by color in their dressing rooms? Supposedly it was because if they saw someone took the time to do that, then all of the stage work would probably be done properly as well... but I digress. In my years of "talking gear" with customers, clients and other techs I'm not sure that anyone has tried to sell me on the idea of the fiber or cloth wire for anything more than the "coolness factor".

Flatwork variations can be very important insofar as it alters the geometry of the coil. Many of the plastic bobbins are injection molded and the magnets slide in, whereas the fiber uses the magnets themselves as the bobbin core, using some other insulator. Also, small changes in materials can lead to other changes that are completely unintentional, especially when being hand made; if the wire lies on one kind of bobbin a bit differently for a given winder, then it is an important difference. When you're hand winding, the weirdest little things like that can make a coil build entirely differently. So, I think it would be valid to say "using fiber instead of plastic sounds different", but it would be invalid to attribute it to anything specific to the material itself.

[Alan0354]

I know about the fiber fretwork allow the wire to wind onto the magnetic poles. I know Fender plastic bobbins do not allow the wire to touch the poles. But I know for fact that there is at least one winder that make the plastic bobbin in the way the the wire will wind onto the two end poles directly and touch the poles on two side in the middle just like the fiber fretwork. There should be no difference between the fiber pup and the plastic pup. It is all about the design of the plastic. It is not hard to design the plastic bobbin so the wire can touch on both end poles and two sides of the rest JUST LIKE the fiber fretwork.

My point is still, being all else equal, whether the fiber fretwork sounds better than the plastic.

I can tell you I don't buy any of the difference as the bobbin material has absolutely nothing to do with the magnetics. Some might put me down for asking, but this is scientific, not some myth. You have a theory, I am all ears. Just don't say " it is!!!".

[copperheadroads]

When will all the shenanigans going to end
If you have plastic bobbin & it's identical to a forbon assembled bobbin there should be no difference in tone
Make sure all materials of a pickup is cross-examined
I do see more & more questions on forums about pushback wire
It's tone compared to other wire

[LtKojak]

I know about the fiber fretwork

It's FLATWORK! FLATWORK!!!!!!!!!

It's written correctly over all and each one of the answers you got.

Seems you can't tell the difference..?

[tmenss]

I can't deny that plastic bobbins can alter coil dimensions and that coil dimensions affect tone. Personally I don't think I could tell the difference in tone. Rather, I think plastic bobbins allow a user more tone options by the virtue of being able to manipulate other string to coil to magnet configurations. A purchased p'bobbin pickup and its factory stagger may only be representative of its intented tone. Maybe Fender contemplated people may have a choice of stagger!

Plastic could be molded or altered as Alan suggested with an ability to expose the magnets to coil winding . In reading this column I even though of resin casting some tiny neodymium rods into cylinders and inserting them into an exisiting plastic bobbin to see what tonal possibilities they may have in different positions within the coil. I'm not arguing with traditional views but I'd like not to avoid other possible tonal outcomes despite a possibility of failure, I'm just a curious sort.

[big_teee]

Unless your going to gear up to make Bobbins, Us Real Pickup Winders have to use What is available.
As Copper pointed out, the Plastic bobbins Available to us are thicker than Air.
So, I really don't understand the purpose of this Thread.
Normally, If you have a problem, we all try to pitch in to help solve it.
There is no Pickup being made, Thus No Problem.
Next Issue?
Terry

[Steve Conner]

In fact I think too many people that work of pickups don't know a thing about electromagnetics.

I would say on the contrary, they know a lot about applied electromagnetics, even if they maybe don't talk the EM theory talk. And they all seem to agree with you that Forbon flatwork doesn't have any magical properties.

Again, what does controlled proof mean in a field where the final judgement is subjective? You might as well ask for controlled proof that a Van Morrison song is better than a Tim Buckley one. Like it or not, the end user will judge the "sound" of the product based on how it looks, how much he paid for it, and the stories he's heard about it, as well as what it really sounds like. To make a successful product, you have to play that same game.

I don't build pickups, but I build tube amps. I also build transistor and hybrid ones, and I have reasonable objective "proof" that transistors can sound just as good as tubes at their finest.

Bob Carver famously built a transistor hi-fi amp that couldn't be distinguished from a tube one, even in sighted tests, and I've no doubt that I could do the same with a musical instrument amp, even if it would be a bit harder.

But I still love tube amps! The preference for fiber bobbins is like that. It's how things work in the real world. People choose according to their fancies. The ones with a scientific background then twist the facts to make their choice seem like it was logical.

[David Schwab]

Without reading every post...

I can speak of first hand experience with this type of situation.

Originally my pickups used bobbins that were made like Fender, with flat work, and the wire wound so it was touching the steel blade I use.

Then I changed the way I made my bobbins, so there was about 1/16" space between the coil and blade. I noticed no difference in tone.

Now I'm using bobbins that have a much thinner piece of plastic between the coil and blade, and I also don't hear any change in tone.

I did A/B tests between the various bobbin designs to make sure the tone wasn't changing. If there is a difference, it's so small it's not worth worrying about.

[Alan0354]

The point is the mass public have the idea the fiber flatwork sounds better and all good pups have to use fiber flatwork. They also sneeze on Fender MIA pups and Tex Mex as cheap pups. I personally prefer the plastic MIA sound over the Fender CS54 I have. Also the biggest motivation point of the plastic bobbin is the ability to adjust the stagger without worrying about ruining the wires.

[Alan0354]

I would say on the contrary, they know a lot about applied electromagnetics, even if they maybe don't talk the EM theory talk. And they all seem to agree with you that Forbon flatwork doesn't have any magical properties.

Again, what does controlled proof mean in a field where the final judgement is subjective? You might as well ask for controlled proof that a Van Morrison song is better than a Tim Buckley one. Like it or not, the end user will judge the "sound" of the product based on how it looks, how much he paid for it, and the stories he's heard about it, as well as what it really sounds like. To make a successful product, you have to play that same game.

I don't build pickups, but I build tube amps. I also build transistor and hybrid ones, and I have reasonable objective "proof" that transistors can sound just as good as tubes at their finest.

Bob Carver famously built a transistor hi-fi amp that couldn't be distinguished from a tube one, even in sighted tests, and I've no doubt that I could do the same with a musical instrument amp, even if it would be a bit harder.

But I still love tube amps! The preference for fiber bobbins is like that. It's how things work in the real world. People choose according to their fancies. The ones with a scientific background then twist the facts to make their choice seem like it was logical.

This is the response to big-teee about I have no place in pickup talk because I don't wind pup. Not to the general public. I do amp design and electronics also, I mainly do tube amp. But for audiophile amp, The best one I like is YBL which is transistors. I think for clean sound, it is going to be hard to say one better than the other. For distortion sound, tube do have a different characteristics from the transistor amp. Just different, not necessary not as good. But this is like the vintage pickup also, people have preconception that the vintage are better because they have to sound burnt into their mind how a real guitar should sound. I am being a late Fender convert that I use Gibson in my gigging days. I don't have a preconception of how the strat should sound and I pick the new MIA strat over the vintage strat that I actually had ( an early 60s real vintage strat).

Also regarding to amp, I am yet to be convinced that there is a big difference the sound of a specific cap, or has to be carbon comp resistors. To me it's all about the design. And at that, people pretty much copying one another, change a few values and called it their own.