Fiber flatwork vs plastic bobbin.

[Alan0354]

Without reading every post...

I can speak of first hand experience with this type of situation.

Originally my pickups used bobbins that were made like Fender, with flat work, and the wire wound so it was touching the steel blade I use.

Then I changed the way I made my bobbins, so there was about 1/16" space between the coil and blade. I noticed no difference in tone.

Now I'm using bobbins that have a much thinner piece of plastic between the coil and blade, and I also don't hear any change in tone.

I did A/B tests between the various bobbin designs to make sure the tone wasn't changing. If there is a difference, it's so small it's not worth worrying about.

Thank you......from an actual pickup maker. Do you sell pickup on the market?

[Alan0354]

But the tail cannot wag the dog very much. In this case the tail is the winding capacitance and the dog is the cable capacitance. The latter is a lot bigger, and although changes in the former can make a difference, it is not very big.

The inductance changes due to altering the shape of the winding are more important. There is no other larger inductance around, and the arrangement of the winding has a significant effect on the flux coupling.

I actually gave quite a bit of thoughts about your comment. I do agree about the increase of inductance because of the bigger area inside the turn. One thing I do want to point out, the inner winding capacitance might be more important than you think. The reason is you know for sure the winding pattern make a big difference to the sound. Scattered winding lower the capacitance and it sound glassier and brighter. So the capacitance do contribute to the sound.

Also I think of something about the flatter coil sounding warmer, more towards the humbucking pup. I think when the coil is flat, the outer turns has a bigger area inside, so the window of sensing the strings is broader eg. it sense a 1/2" section of the string instead of the a very narrow window where you sense maybe 1/8" section of the string. Some the wider coil sense more harmonics like the humbuckers than the narrow coil of the strats.

[Mike Sulzer]

I actually gave quite a bit of thoughts about your comment. I do agree about the increase of inductance because of the bigger area inside the turn. One thing I do want to point out, the inner winding capacitance might be more important than you think. The reason is you know for sure the winding pattern make a big difference to the sound. Scattered winding lower the capacitance and it sound glassier and brighter. So the capacitance do contribute to the sound.

Also I think of something about the flatter coil sounding warmer, more towards the humbucking pup. I think when the coil is flat, the outer turns has a bigger area inside, so the window of sensing the strings is broader eg. it sense a 1/2" section of the string instead of the a very narrow window where you sense maybe 1/8" section of the string. Some the wider coil sense more harmonics like the humbuckers than the narrow coil of the strats.

I will stand by my statement about the capacitance unless proven differently. Also for the inductance, it is not just the bigger area of the loop, it is the close coupling in flat, rather than tall, coils with the same number of turns.

As for the sampling region, a flatter coils does not sample a wider window. As far as a measurements goes, the size of the sampling region is one of the results of the discussion on sc versus humbucker string sampling. The theoretical reasons are:
1. The magnetization of the string is primarily right over the pole piece. The "vertical" component falls off very quickly away from there.
2. The pole piece guides the flux from the vibrating string down through it. Narrow loops and wider loops enclose essentially the same flux until the loop gets so large that it also encloses returning flux lines. (Such wide loops contribute less output.)

[Alan0354]

I will stand by my statement about the capacitance unless proven differently. Also for the inductance, it is not just the bigger area of the loop, it is the close coupling in flat, rather than tall, coils with the same number of turns.

As for the sampling region, a flatter coils does not sample a wider window. As far as a measurements goes, the size of the sampling region is one of the results of the discussion on sc versus humbucker string sampling. The theoretical reasons are:
1. The magnetization of the string is primarily right over the pole piece. The "vertical" component falls off very quickly away from there.
2. The pole piece guides the flux from the vibrating string down through it. Narrow loops and wider loops enclose essentially the same flux until the loop gets so large that it also encloses returning flux lines. (Such wide loops contribute less output.)

Well, then how do you explain the different sound with different winding pattern? Given the dimension of the bobbin is fixed, the only thing you can change is the inter winding capacistance.

[copperheadroads]

Is this about plastic vs forbon or you trying to defend the mediocre US standard pickups
They are not that great

[big_teee]

Maybe we can take a poll of everyone here that winds single coils.
Do you use Forbon Flatwork with rod magnets, or do you use Plastic Bobbins with rod magnets?
We all can buy both, so What do you use?
BigT uses forbon Flatwork with Rod Magnets.
What do you use?
Terry

[Mike Sulzer]

Well, then how do you explain the different sound with different winding pattern? Given the dimension of the bobbin is fixed, the only thing you can change is the inter winding capacistance.

Suppose the two coils of a humbucker in series have 80 pf of capacitance, and the cable has 500 pf. Suppose you double the series coil capacitance to 160 pf by winding differently. The change in resonant frequency is sqrt((500 + 80)/(500 + 160)) = .937. This is about 6.25%. Audible sure; large effect, hardly. Using different cables can make more of a difference.

[Alan0354]

Maybe we can take a poll of everyone here that winds single coils.
Do you use Forbon Flatwork with rod magnets, or do you use Plastic Bobbins with rod magnets?
We all can buy both, so What do you use?
BigT uses forbon Flatwork with Rod Magnets.
What do you use?
Terry

I think most small winder use fiber because it is readily available where you are limited by the plastic bobbin available. You can adjust the dimension of the fiber flatwork easily but not the plastic. But this is not the point of my post, just if all else are equal, what is the difference in sound. Not to mention customer relate fiber with better more vintage quality. Therefore even the big pup maker like Dimarzio and SD still use fiber as standard even they can afford to mold their special bobbins. That is where the question of myth or science come in.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

The point is the mass public have the idea the fiber flatwork sounds better and all good pups have to use fiber flatwork. They also sneeze on Fender MIA pups and Tex Mex as cheap pups. I personally prefer the plastic MIA sound over the Fender CS54 I have. Also the biggest motivation point of the plastic bobbin is the ability to adjust the stagger without worrying about ruining the wires.

Again, I'm just not seeing these voodoo beliefs in the market, and I deal with players/gearheads on a regular basis. There are many other differences between vintage style pickups and the "modern" style as made by Fender, not least of which is that many of the ones that come to mind have ceramic magnets. I'm yet to have a single person say to me that they believe (or read somewhere) that forbon as a material was superior to plastic. It is only really mentioned as an indication for being vintage accurate.

One difference between forbon and plastic that I failed to mention before - if you are leaving pickups unpotted (and maybe if you wax pot them as well, I'm not sure) there can be a very small difference in how the microphonics behave. I've run into this using phenolics of various kinds. Tap a sheet and you hear this kinda annoying high sound. Wind a pickup and install it and then tap the pickup, and you'll hear the same sound through the amp. Forbon has a quite dull tone. I'm not sure that I'd ever let that be the deciding factor in choosing materials for my own pickups, but if I had a desire to sell them unpotted I would certainly consider it.

[Alan0354]

Suppose the two coils of a humbucker in series have 80 pf of capacitance, and the cable has 500 pf. Suppose you double the series coil capacitance to 160 pf by winding differently. The change in resonant frequency is sqrt((500 + 80)/(500 + 160)) = .937. This is about 6.25%. Audible sure; large effect, hardly. Using different cables can make more of a difference.

How do you explain the winding pattern make such a big difference? I don't think it work like this as this is distributed capacitance and it drown out the highs. I don't know, I just question and it has to make sense like when you talk about the larger area of coil give larger inductance, it rings the bell right away. There must be still something we have not thought of.

[Alan0354]

Again, I'm just not seeing these voodoo beliefs in the market, and I deal with players/gearheads on a regular basis. There are many other differences between vintage style pickups and the "modern" style as made by Fender, not least of which is that many of the ones that come to mind have ceramic magnets. I'm yet to have a single person say to me that they believe (or read somewhere) that forbon as a material was superior to plastic. It is only really mentioned as an indication for being vintage accurate.

One difference between forbon and plastic that I failed to mention before - if you are leaving pickups unpotted (and maybe if you wax pot them as well, I'm not sure) there can be a very small difference in how the microphonics behave. I've run into this using phenolics of various kinds. Tap a sheet and you hear this kinda annoying high sound. Wind a pickup and install it and then tap the pickup, and you'll hear the same sound through the amp. Forbon has a quite dull tone. I'm not sure that I'd ever let that be the deciding factor in choosing materials for my own pickups, but if I had a desire to sell them unpotted I would certainly consider it.

I have been very active in Strat-Talk forums and they all think the forbon is the high end and they sneeze on the plastic stuff. That is the biggest strat forum around, more traffic than pretty much all others combined and more. I think more if not all the pups are wax potted, but I don't know whether they do it right by using an aspirator to evacuate the air while dipped in molten wax to get all the bubbles out inside the winding. I actually saw one demo that the winder just dip the pup in as take it out. It is a totally waste of wax and time as wax don't flow into the winding.

[David Schwab]

The main difference between a forbon & plastic bobbin strat pickup is distance between the wire & the magnets
If you cut a plastic bobbin in two to separate the top & the bottom ,You will see there is quite a bit of plastic ,Compared to tape or a coat of lacquer like on a traditional style bobbin
The main difference in tone is the forbon style pup will be more dynamic in every way .I find that plastic bobbin pickups sound a little bland

But it doesn't matter if the wire is touching the magnets in this manner. Maybe the only thing it will change is the capacitance of the coil's inner windings.

The part of the magnet between the poles doesn't have anything interesting going on. The strings are redirecting the flow of flux from the poles through the coil.

So it's not like having the windings touching the magnets makes the pickup any more sensitive or anything.

[big_teee]

But it doesn't matter if the wire is touching the magnets in this manner. Maybe the only thing it will change is the capacitance of the coil's inner windings.

The part of the magnet between the poles doesn't have anything interesting going on. The strings are redirecting the flow of flux from the poles through the coil.

So it's not like having the windings touching the magnets makes the pickup any more sensitive or anything.

What a lot of us like about the forbon vs the plastic bobbin.
Is how you can vary the height of the bobbin, and the fact that you can get more wire on the bobbin and still get the cover on it.
The plastic bobbins that are available, have very limited Winding space.
You have so many more variables with Flatwork.
Terry

[Alan0354]

But it doesn't matter if the wire is touching the magnets in this manner. Maybe the only thing it will change is the capacitance of the coil's inner windings.

The part of the magnet between the poles doesn't have anything interesting going on. The strings are redirecting the flow of flux from the poles through the coil.

So it's not like having the windings touching the magnets makes the pickup any more sensitive or anything.

I have seen plastic bobbin made so the wires touches the pole exactly the same as the forbon flatwork. so that is not even unique of the forbon.

[CRU JONES]

Alan, may I suggest you start winding some pickups? Winding might put this in perspective for you. Many things you read may not jibe with what you have been taught in your University. Some of I may be pure myth and much of it may be due to misinterpretation of why and what actually makes a particular pickup sound great and feel great. But, I don't think it matters if you are a luthier became winder or an engineer that has become a winder. In the end it has to sound good. An amazing pickup may only be a few percent different from a good one. Most guitarists will gladly pay for less than a decibel in the direction they want to go, or for less than 100Hz in the direction they want.

Winding pickups is not just a science, it's an art. I don't brag much because most of the guys here wind some REALLY good sounding pickups. Plastic is crap. Don't develop your art winding on crap. Sure, it could be done. But... It will look really cheap, and the guys have already given you enough reasons not to do it!

Stephen Conner is a really smart engineer. He is also helpful and his contributions are very respectful! Mike Sulzer is also smart and I think he might be an engineer too. Oh well, before you get yourself in trouble, wind some pickups! After you have wound a few, I'll tell you how to wind a humbucker that feels like a tone zone but isn't so dark for your les Paul. But, keep in mind I am a bartender... I probably don't know anything

Ethan