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  • #76
    Originally posted by ScottA View Post
    If nothing else, it should be pretty obvious from browsing this (or any other gear centric) forum that much of what makes pickups specifically, and guitars in general, perform as they do is poorly understood.
    What you call phenomenological data is not invalid. You can't write a paper on it, (and if you try you'll humiliate yourself - many brave techs have tried) but it is a basic recognition and subsequent manipulation of patterns. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If a winder tries actions A, B or C and B sounds the best, he doesn't need to explain to anyone why B sounds the best - he just needs to go with it and keep doing B. I suspect that the methods of most winders on this board can't really be appreciated unless you're with them in their shops. They're used to making products and presenting those products - writing about what they just did is a whole 'nother skill set. It is a good skill to be sure, but lacking that skill doesn't mean they're lacking the other skills.

    It really seems to be fashionable these days to completely dismiss an understanding of instruments themselves, of musicians, and the music they make. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Some folks who "poorly understand" guitars and pickups make some incredible gear. I've known some brilliant engineers who have sat down and decided to design a guitar amp, deciding to discard all current conventional wisdom of what makes a good guitar amp, (because it was all of laughable scientific basis) and do what makes sense purely from a scientific stand point. They didn't rely on subjective "this sounds good" or "this is warm" data, because "good" and "warm" can't be measured empirically, and thus impossible to manipulate in an electronic environment which is quantitative through and through. They used hard data from their scopes, detailed recordings, and other careful measurements.

    Those amps sounded like crap.

    My point isn't that ANY type of research should be discarded, but precisely that NO type or research should be discarded. The whole luthierie trade has done really well for hundreds of years and made some amazing pieces with their methods, and these pickup and amp makers that seem to infuriate everyone really are a continuation of those traditions I believe, moreso than of the academic communities. Each method brings its own pedagogical advantages to the table, and so often on this board it is just a matter of the people on each side trying to club each other. It just doesn't make sense, and resorting to such harsh dogmatism rarely seems to yield good results.

    I do agree with Alan on that last part. The electric guitar is too young of an instrument to really feel like we've peaked in terms of design. While I think it is a mistake to assume that added science and/or technology will necessarily improve on instrument design (there don't seem to be any obvious ways to improve on a stradivarius, for example), we needn't assume that we've exhausted all possible iterations of the instrument. I think a big problem is that instrument design and praxis (that is, musicians making music) go hand in hand. The Les Paul wasn't designed to be played high gain through a Marshall, it was designed for clean jazz. People hearing those Les Paul/Marshall sounds inspired a whole other generation of instruments. Neither the builders nor the musicians are 100% in control of the form of instrumentation at any given time, and it is important to always keep that in mind. That was some of Leo Fender's genius - he had a handful of local musicians that he kept very close tabs on. These days musicians seek out older sounds ("I'm trying to nail that (insert classic album here) tone") instead of being willing to grab something off the wall and just see how it works.

    To Alan's other point, I agree that obsolescence rarely occurs in the music industry. Though, it seems to me that Alan sees it as a bad thing, while I don't. We're in a world where we love our Apple products so much and rush to get the new ones simply on principle that they're new, we do sometimes forget that some things still are useful after the new one has come out. We've gotten so used to things getting better with progressing technology, that we forget that there are many things in the world where this principle just doesn't apply. It is an interesting phenomenon and a topic all to itself, though. I've ranted enough for one post.

    Comment


    • #77
      The reason for that is, to make a good sounding guitar amp you pretty much have to do everything they told you NOT to do in EE school.

      My research interest is in getting the tonal benefit of this "wrongness" without paying the usual price in poor reliability, poor dollars per watt, requirement for tubes, and so on.
      "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Alan0354 View Post
        Thanks, I don't know the pup maker's inside joke.
        The thing is it often starts debates around the importance of TPL in regards to the final tone of the pickup.

        But it clearly matters IMO.
        It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


        http://coneyislandguitars.com
        www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by ScottA View Post
          Given the age of the technology, it really is amazing that there is still so much room for good engineering and science to be done around the electric guitar.
          I'm sure you realize it's vintage-centric dogma. Don't mess with tradition! I'll assume we are close in age, so we both remember when old guitars were just "used" guitars. They were nothing special and fodder for modding and "improving." Often this was done by the very same guitarist that people now want to emulate with stock vintage style guitars.

          A good case in point are pickup covers on humbuckers. People have been taking them off for the last 40 years because their guitars sounded better without them. Now they are fashionable, and people think they look vintage. But guitars still sound better without them. These days it's about the guitar looking vintage, complete with fake aging.

          Judging from the tones you get int he clips, I hear the same tones I go for. You don't need vintage style pickups to get these tones, but people think you do. I'm with you that in this day and age we should be able to get pickups that don't hum and capture the types of tones people have grown up with. I'm going up similar but different routes to get to the same ends. I think bass pickups are more fun because traditionally bass players have been more open minded and want cutting edge stuff. There's now a bit of backlash going on with younger guys all wanting Jazz basses and (*ack*) SVTs, but plenty of players want something different. Bill Lawrence does a heathy amount of business to Fender players who want quiet pickups.

          But it's good to not be in the vintage single coil/PAF field, because it's a bit over saturated. I've been avoiding making guitar pickups, except on custom basis, but now I have some models I like so I'm about to enter that field. And none of them will be vintage repros.
          It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


          http://coneyislandguitars.com
          www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by gripweed
            0
            I don't mean to be a grammar nazi here (especially since those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones), but you start with a hypothesis, when you have evidence to prove or disprove it becomes a theory, and if you can prove three times it becomes a law.
            I'll Bite One Time!
            So for your very first Post, No Hi how are you, good to meet everyone, Nothing like that?
            Just Jump Right in the Hornets Nest.
            Why for Thou, Yonder This One, Grammar Dude?
            B_T
            Last edited by big_teee; 12-13-2011, 05:58 AM.
            "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
            Terry

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by big_teee View Post
              I'll Bite One Time!
              So for your very first Post, No Hi how are you, good to meet everyone, Nothing like that?
              Just Jump Right in the Hornets Nest.
              Why for Thou, Yonder This One, Grammar Dude?
              B_T
              I'm very sorry, you're right. It was a poor choice for my first post. I'm not here to make enemies.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by gripweed View Post
                I'm very sorry, you're right. It was a poor choice for my first post. I'm not here to make enemies.
                I don't think that had anything to do with grammar, and was a good point.

                But who was it in reference to?

                However, the actual definitions are as follows:

                hypothesis
                noun
                a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

                theory
                noun
                a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.

                So the actual meanings are not quantified.
                It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


                http://coneyislandguitars.com
                www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by gripweed View Post
                  I'm very sorry, you're right. It was a poor choice for my first post. I'm not here to make enemies.
                  No Problem!
                  Welcome to the Forum.
                  We're all basically pretty nice guys here!
                  Sometimes Debates get pretty Heated.
                  So Jump back in! (With a Little Less Attack)

                  Later,
                  Terry
                  "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                  Terry

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    It has been a couple days before a deeply personal argument about something entirely trivial, and here is an apology and reconciliation... did I click the right bookmark? Who are you people?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by FunkyKikuchiyo View Post
                      It has been a couple days before a deeply personal argument about something entirely trivial, and here is an apology and reconciliation... did I click the right bookmark? Who are you people?
                      He's new, so he didn't know the rules about no apologies.
                      It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


                      http://coneyislandguitars.com
                      www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by FunkyKikuchiyo View Post
                        What you call phenomenological data is not invalid. You can't write a paper on it, (and if you try you'll humiliate yourself - many brave techs have tried) but it is a basic recognition and subsequent manipulation of patterns. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If a winder tries actions A, B or C and B sounds the best, he doesn't need to explain to anyone why B sounds the best - he just needs to go with it and keep doing B. I suspect that the methods of most winders on this board can't really be appreciated unless you're with them in their shops. They're used to making products and presenting those products - writing about what they just did is a whole 'nother skill set. It is a good skill to be sure, but lacking that skill doesn't mean they're lacking the other skills.

                        It really seems to be fashionable these days to completely dismiss an understanding of instruments themselves, of musicians, and the music they make. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Some folks who "poorly understand" guitars and pickups make some incredible gear. I've known some brilliant engineers who have sat down and decided to design a guitar amp, deciding to discard all current conventional wisdom of what makes a good guitar amp, (because it was all of laughable scientific basis) and do what makes sense purely from a scientific stand point. They didn't rely on subjective "this sounds good" or "this is warm" data, because "good" and "warm" can't be measured empirically, and thus impossible to manipulate in an electronic environment which is quantitative through and through. They used hard data from their scopes, detailed recordings, and other careful measurements.

                        Those amps sounded like crap.

                        My point isn't that ANY type of research should be discarded, but precisely that NO type or research should be discarded. The whole luthierie trade has done really well for hundreds of years and made some amazing pieces with their methods, and these pickup and amp makers that seem to infuriate everyone really are a continuation of those traditions I believe, moreso than of the academic communities. Each method brings its own pedagogical advantages to the table, and so often on this board it is just a matter of the people on each side trying to club each other. It just doesn't make sense, and resorting to such harsh dogmatism rarely seems to yield good results.

                        I do agree with Alan on that last part. The electric guitar is too young of an instrument to really feel like we've peaked in terms of design. While I think it is a mistake to assume that added science and/or technology will necessarily improve on instrument design (there don't seem to be any obvious ways to improve on a stradivarius, for example), we needn't assume that we've exhausted all possible iterations of the instrument. I think a big problem is that instrument design and praxis (that is, musicians making music) go hand in hand. The Les Paul wasn't designed to be played high gain through a Marshall, it was designed for clean jazz. People hearing those Les Paul/Marshall sounds inspired a whole other generation of instruments. Neither the builders nor the musicians are 100% in control of the form of instrumentation at any given time, and it is important to always keep that in mind. That was some of Leo Fender's genius - he had a handful of local musicians that he kept very close tabs on. These days musicians seek out older sounds ("I'm trying to nail that (insert classic album here) tone") instead of being willing to grab something off the wall and just see how it works.

                        To Alan's other point, I agree that obsolescence rarely occurs in the music industry. Though, it seems to me that Alan sees it as a bad thing, while I don't. We're in a world where we love our Apple products so much and rush to get the new ones simply on principle that they're new, we do sometimes forget that some things still are useful after the new one has come out. We've gotten so used to things getting better with progressing technology, that we forget that there are many things in the world where this principle just doesn't apply. It is an interesting phenomenon and a topic all to itself, though. I've ranted enough for one post.
                        I was just going to let this one hang there, but in today's spirit of reconciliation:

                        I really didn't intend my original post to be harsh dogmatism. The comment of "poorly understood" need not be interpreted overly harshly. I've worked in a series of high tech industries where the processes are "poorly understood" and viewed as somewhat of a "black box" but plenty of working product comes out the back end. You can manipulate a system into performing without understanding exactly how it performs on a fundamental level.

                        My comment of "poorly understood" was referencing the fact that a lot of pretty basic questions pertaining to guitar technology get asked on almost a daily basis, here and on other forums, and there doesn't seem to be a data based consensus on a lot of the answers.

                        I'm not trying to say that people don't understand how to build good guitars, clearly they do. But, at the same time, people are leveraging aspects of the technology to get a result without necessarily understanding what is really going on inside the "black box". And that's fine, it happens every day in plenty of industries.

                        I'll just say that as a scientist and engineer, I personally am driven to try and decode a little bit of what is going on inside that box, and I do think there is utility that can be derived from that process and folded in to making better or more targeted stuff.
                        Last edited by ScottA; 12-13-2011, 05:49 PM.
                        www.zexcoil.com

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by big_teee View Post
                          No Problem!
                          Welcome to the Forum.
                          We're all basically pretty nice guys here!
                          Sometimes Debates get pretty Heated.
                          So Jump back in! (With a Little Less Attack)

                          Later,
                          Terry
                          I'd love to jump back in, but all of you here are so much more knowledgeable about pickups than I am. Honestly, I'm intimidated by all of the knowledge you guys have! You may notice I joined quite a while ago, but have never posted before for that very reason. I guess I'm a long time lurker! I suppose that makes my first post even more odd. I'm glad you're so forgiving of my temporary insanity.

                          I'm here to learn...

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by gripweed View Post
                            I'd love to jump back in, but all of you here are so much more knowledgeable about pickups than I am. Honestly, I'm intimidated by all of the knowledge you guys have! You may notice I joined quite a while ago, but have never posted before for that very reason. I guess I'm a long time lurker! I suppose that makes my first post even more odd. I'm glad you're so forgiving of my temporary insanity.

                            I'm here to learn...
                            Don't forget that we have the Beginners Corner.
                            It's a little slower paced and a good place to ask any basic questions.
                            I hangout there often!
                            B_T
                            "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                            Terry

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              ScottA - no worries. I was honestly more responding to other posters than I was to you, even though I started it with your quote. I agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with wishing for more understanding, more data, and more verification of findings, but I think many posters here (again, not specifically anyone in particular) would just as soon throw everything else out. I think luthiery is and always will be more craft oriented and artisanal than industrial or engineering based, and I think that pickups fall under that banner as well. I think everyone industry wide would benefit from stepping back and considering how they come up with designs and what could be flawed with their methods - they just might figure out a few reasons why the old stuff is more popular even today.

                              Comment

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