Time to Come Clean

[fieldwrangler]

So -

For a long time I've spent a lotta time dorking around with the basic architecture and magnetic variations of guitar pickups. As regards the finer points of coil winding, well, that's another story.

As a longtime Hand Guider I've payed attention to wire gauge, insulation, number of turns, tension and aspect ratios. However, as far as the finer points of layering go, really, I just basically try to do what I hafta do to get all the wire on there and have the coil look nice & even on the outside when I'm done. Then, I check them on the MIghty Extech, and the ones that look pretty much identical (which is most of them) get used.

As a result, I kindof have no idea what I'm really doing, and 'till now, just wanted make sure I kept doing it, whatever the heck it is, because the decisions I'm making about the pickups have been based on how they sound when built around those coils.

However, I'm now talking to a pickup winding facility about cranking out a number of coils for my first real run, and they're proud of all the cool things they can control on the potential epic journey taken by the turns from inside to out. I suppose I could unwind my own (and other) coils and pay attention to what I see, but I'm not sure that's necessary. Really, I think it's time for me to Get a Clue about what you all think are The Basics of controlled variable TPL winding technique.

I'm not asking for anyone to hand over their hard-won personal formulas; I just want to know what you think is a good place to start, and if there's any general consensus about what to do from the inside towards the outside of a coil.

[fieldwrangler]

'Course, I just came upon this on another thread...

"Just remember the first rule of pickup makers forum: don't talk about TPL! As long as you don't talk about TPL, you will be fine. Ok, good luck

Ethan"

Uh oh...

Bob Palmieri

[Jim Shine]

Because you are looking to mass produce what you have made of your own and not someone elses, I would say you need to find your TPL, tension, etc average, then have the facility wind up variations of that average. Test them and find the range that sounds closest to what you are after. Then have alternates made of that range. You may end up with a ton of samples before you find the one that is "right", but once you have it, then they should be able to make them consistently. To get that initial average, maybe you can video winding a pickup, show the counter and watch the layering.

[StarryNight]

best of luck with your new venture! I thought it was more to do with waving my John the Conqueroo around my winder before starting, but maybe there's more to it. If you're going to start products on a new winder you might have to get some samples first and test them out. Start TPLs wide and go narrow, then try the opposite. Then be consistent all the way through - both narrow and wide. Chances are you'll end up with a few good recipies which then you can label funny names like they do in horse racing: Bouncing Betty, Wang Chung Tonight etc.
If there's variable tension control then things get even more kooky!

[SpareRibs]

Hello,
Go to (Pickup Coil Estimator). That should give you some guidelines to work with.

[Jim Shine]

The coil estimator will provide what is needed to meet resistance. This is about shaping the tone with TPL and tension.

[big_teee]

I'm confused here.
If you have some facility crank them out, even with your guidance.
The Question Do you sell them as Your Hand wound Pickups?
Like Starry said, isn't that the voodoo of it all?
Don't shoot, just asking the question.
One more thing.
Once the facility has the formula, what is to keep them from making their own with their own name on it?
Just change it a bit?
Just Asking?
T

[Jim Shine]

Most facilities are busy doing their specialty and know nothing about your field. They just do their job. We rely on machine shops to live. They make our unique products. They know nothing about what we are selling, just how to make it and make us happy. Only once we had a problem. Someone figured out one of our shops, went in and ordered our product. We found out about it, went in and recovered all of our dies and patterns and went to another facility. This time we had them sign a contract drafted up by our lawyer.

[fieldwrangler]

This video idea is especially intriguing.

[fieldwrangler]

Start TPLs wide and go narrow, then try the opposite. Then be consistent all the way through - both narrow and wide.
If there's variable tension control then things get even more kooky!

A good methodology, this...

[fieldwrangler]

I'm confused here.
If you have some facility crank them out, even with your guidance.
The Question Do you sell them as Your Hand wound Pickups?
Like Starry said, isn't that the voodoo of it all?
Don't shoot, just asking the question.
One more thing.
Once the facility has the formula, what is to keep them from making their own with their own name on it?
Just change it a bit?
Just Asking?
T

Don't believe hand winding is essential to either the function or sales aspect of these particular pieces.

However, since these folks are an actual pickup winding facility there is some danger of seeing some (or all) of what I'm doing here end up falling out of my hands.

[fieldwrangler]

Fortunately they'll only know about the coils, not the assembly or architecture of the final product.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

If it was me, I'd want some samples to make sure they didn't end up dramatically different, especially before committing to the cost. Will they do a run of a half dozen or so for you?

My feeling is that much of the charm of hand winding is the tensioning rather than TPL variations, (at least that is what my own experiments tell me, but I haven't tried a 100% mechanized winding setup) and I'm guessing the versatility they're bragging about is in the traverse mechanism rather than the tensioner. I'm not dogmatically opposed to mechanization (if I had the resources I'd be doing it) but it does seem like it could change a lot all at once for you.

[RedHouse]

...However, since these folks are an actual pickup winding facility there is some danger of seeing some (or all) of what I'm doing here end up falling out of my hands.

Are they "off-shore"?
(ie; north of Thailand, west of India, south of Siberia?)

All kidding aside, anytime you "out-source" you risk letting your spec/design go away beyond your control. Even if no one pop's up saying "we got his stuff" your spec/design has a HUGE chance of finding it's way into another someone's product and becomming potentially, your competition.
(potential, but not inevitable)

[belwar]

My feeling is that much of the charm of hand winding is the tensioning rather than TPL variations

I agree, but my experience with hand winding is limited - I only machine wind.

I'm not dogmatically opposed to mechanization (if I had the resources I'd be doing it)

You know, I never understand why people say this (Not you specifically) .. A very good gear driven mechanical winder which can do between 2 and 500 tpl can be had for $300 and $500 without looking very hard. I dont know about you, but the time I gain from not having to sit in front of a winder moving my hand back and forth for days on end is way more economical to me... I put a coil in, turn it on, while its running I solder and tape the previous coil, and as soon as im done the next coil is ready. You get way more uniformity on your product too.. and if you want the tension variation, well then remove the tensioner and use your hands.