hand winders or cnc winder

[Possum]

Jon, this thead is about CNC winding, its not about you. You turned this thread into another forum attack against my work the same as you try to do on every other post I comment on with other forums, thank you for demonstrating your tactics in public. Your work speaks for itself as mine does, customers are the ones that decide who "got it" and who didn't......

Bill, send me your address and I'll send you one of these evil alnico 4 vintage fat magnets. Shea has some really good contacts that make alnico that is nearly indistinguishable from vintage, watch my short alnico 5 magnet swap video on YouTube, you might be surprised....

[David Schwab]

Jon, this thead is about CNC winding, its not about you.

Well Dave, somehow you turned it into being about you. Knock it off now.

[RedHouse]

Well Dave, somehow you turned it into being about you. Knock it off now.

That will never work, hasn't yet.

His pathology in his posts always exhibits at least 3 of these following notions:

- I know all about PAFs, you don't, and I'm not telling what I know.
- I did "research", you didn't, and you have to take my word for it
- I make my own stuff, but I order stuff from others, but you can't order stuff from others and make decent pickups
- I'm smarter/better/more-knowlegable than Duncan/Dimarzio/Gibson/Leo etc, just look how "bad/awful/not-real" they all do
- I say this-n-that, it's fact, and you just have to take my word for it
- I'm the only one who "gets it", no one understands PAFs, or pickups like me.
- I have a friend who said/does xxxyyyyzzzz, but I won't/can't name him/her/them

and all this "info" never helps the OP (pick any thread) but always tangents the thread off. It's just got to be real, if it's said enought times, right?

No disrespect intended.

David S, I really don't appreciate your altering my words here, I'm putting them back, please don;t do this again. You can make you own post/reply with your alterations but it's not acceptable (to me) to openly alter what I have typed. Thank you.

[Bill M]

I want to develop my business and to own a more professional winder to build pickups that can handle hundreds a month, I build almost all types of pickups, bass, humbucker, single,mini etc.
Should I pay a lot of money on the adams hand coil winder Adams-Maxwell Hand Coil Winding Devices ?
(I prefer to wind the pickup manually) or buy some Welcome to George Stevens Mfg., Inc.
computer cnc automatic coils winder winding machine US1 | eBay
AX3 Winding Machine
do the adams coil winder Worth the money and do i need some of the Accessories Adams-Maxwell - 1201 Coil Winder Spare Parts
I am using now the Schatten Pickup Winder and my custom stronger winder but i have problem with the loose tansion

My advise to you would be to deal with your loose tension problem 1st before thinking about any high tech gizmo winding machines. You have to be able to make a good pickup 1st because no fancy winder is going to automatically do it for you. Many, here, use felt tensioning devices that work perfectly, just start simple and work up from there.

[Bill M]

Bill, send me your address and I'll send you one of these evil alnico 4 vintage fat magnets. Shea has some really good contacts that make alnico that is nearly indistinguishable from vintage, watch my short alnico 5 magnet swap video on YouTube, you might be surprised....

Thank You for the generous offer, but I am very happy with the A4 that i use now. Also your fat A4 would not work with my keepers and spacers that I make as my bobbins would be way tilted. I would have to grind the heck out of it to get it to the thickness I would be able to use. Your offer is much appreciated.

[David Schwab]

My advise to you would be to deal with your loose tension problem 1st before thinking about any high tech gizmo winding machines. You have to be able to make a good pickup 1st because no fancy winder is going to automatically do it for you. Many, here, use felt tensioning devices that work perfectly, just start simple and work up from there.

Yes, learn to hand wind first and get that to work. You really only need a CNC winder for productivity.

[Possum]

Bill, no it doesn't really tilt the coils, I don't know why you think that, some PAF's are a little bit, but its not a big deal and its not real noticeable; early Patents are dead flat because they ground the magnets down. The fat vintage magnets aren't huge real thick things, they average .133" thick but thats enough added mass to make a difference in the treble range and its why I have them made that way.

RedHouse, believe anything you want to :-) your comments are funny. Yes, I did post some of the lab stuff, the Elektrisola Lab sheet, well there are about 8 pages of that stuff alone, tip of the iceberg, I don't know why you even care, you're not really interested in the PAF world anyway.

As for comments that I only use commercial parts like the rest of blah blah blah just shows lack of critical judgement on anyone coming to that conclusion. I should post some photos of the Seymour Duncan PAF repro he made in about 1978. Double creme butyrate bobbins, not perfect repro's in looks but in design, close enough, American made alnico 2, PE wire when that wire was closer to vintage actually, probably wound on an old winder (whoopee...), perfect baseplate, perfect bobbin mount screws, perfect hand filed/deburred pole keeper same as real PAF's, correct size and alloy slugs (well, they could be wrong but the machining looks like it should), 3M black flat back tape, silkscreened waterslide PAF decal, 2 pair braided shield lead wire, black coil leads, pole screws right head diameter, but probably wrong alloy, but not a huge deal breaker. I'm sure he spent a fortune on tooling, etc. etc. But it didn't work. No one likes those pickups, they don't sell well on Ebay, they could never be mistaken for a real PAF when you plug one in. So if you want to judge my work by cosmetics, I can say the same things about the factory approach, looks don't count for anything, no one wants a perfect looking reproduction pickup that sounds flat, sterile, and one dimensional and the Duncan does. Factory made parts didn't help them, because they didn't "get it." The lab work I've accumulated even if I published it all on the web would be useless to anyone because no one would know what to do with it ;-) Its not a how-to guidebook, you have to figure out how to apply it in real life with modern materials, and that has taken years. The rest of that story of course I won't tell you what I'm doing. So if you think you can use what you think I am using, and get the same results I am, you will quickly find out you're wrong ;-) and most likely you'll end up with a pickup that sounds like this Duncan does. Let me know if you want to see pix of it.

I have over 40 videos of my work on YouTube, you are welcome to go there and see what I am doing, the latest video is worth watching if you want to see how close I can copy a real vintage PAF. Thats my bottom line for my PAF work, put it up against the real thing thru a real clean amp setup, no stomp boxes, no effects, treble way up to hear detail, I put my work on the line for everyone to see what research and hard work can accomplish, I don't make any marketing claims other than I put in a lot of years on this project, I don't have a magic winder, or NOS mystery magnet wire, or magnets other than what anyone can buy from Shea, I do have knowledge that works for me.

[Possum]

Dave is right, you're not going to be able to make good sounding pickups by buying a CNC winder right off the bat and expect to produce anything worthwhile. Making pickups isn't just wrapping some wire around some magnets, far far from it. I'd say hand wind for about 3 years until you get a sense that you know what you're doing, it'll take about that long, and you'll need to do alot of experimental winding to learn what different methods and different coils do to single coil tone. I would stay away from humbuckers because they are too complex for a beginner to understand, you're stuck with a pre-designed coil bobbin too. Learn single coils before you get into buckers. With Fender single coils you can experiment with longer magnets to see what tall coils sound like or do short magnet pickups, you can't do that with humbuckers. Single coils are also the hardest to really make shine. Try a felt thumb screw tensioner and try hand tensioning with and without a piece of felt. Then get into CNC and figure out how to program your hand winding knowledge into it. Then you have to learn machine winding patterns which is a whole other world too. It takes about 6 or 7 years to get decent at it all, but thats only if you constantly push the envelope and try new things all the time to see what works and what doesn't. You should make every kind of pickup that players use and not just do humbuckers or single coils, or you'll have a hole in your knowledge and won't be as competent.

[dor baruch]

Hello Friends!!!
I appreciate all your opinion is very important to me
So I contradict your words Hopefully prove me if I'm wrong
i am building electric guitars and bass more then 16 years (much more then 100 guitars )

(My advise to you would be to deal with your loose tension problem 1st before thinking about any high tech gizmo winding machines. You have to be able to make a good pickup 1st because no fancy winder is going to automatically do it for you. Many, here, use felt tensioning devices that work perfectly, just start simple and work up from there.)
i build good pickup and dont have loose tension now singles and hum the prob is that for real Business i need more then 95% Consistency

"Yes, learn to hand wind first and get that to work. You really only need a CNC winder for productivy."

i know how to hand wind the cnc winder is for the paf and hum pickups and for my Own design pickups
i can have alot more control on the Variables of building pickups so i can Experience more

"I'd say hand wind for about 3 years until you get a sense that you know what you're doing, it'll take about that long, and you'll need to do alot of experimental winding to learn what different methods and different coils do to single coil tone"
i dont think ineed to hand wind for 3 years i did Hundreds Pickups And I understand quite well the variables
I studied physics and electromagnetism to a high level to understand the physics of building pickup and I combine this knowledge with the finel hearing Result
i know alot of winding patterns and the "Secrets" of alot pickups like (dp100,l500l,x2n,hot rails,old strats,some old paf,dsonic,kinman...)this is Science!!!
the Adjustment of the parts and winding to a Specific situation is the art from my point of view
i only askd how i tansion on a cnc winder like the Dudez

when i started to play guitar or build guitars People told me it would take me years to learn (do you think that it really happened)
after 2 years i play symphony x and build guitars from blanks

[David King]

If you want to make money in a free market it always pays to look for a business that isn't "sexy". Don't try to be a chef or a pickup winder. Stick with mortician or actuarial science. Everyone has to die eventually.

[RedHouse]

...Stick with mortician or actuarial science. ...

Or toilet paper, everyone has to... (eventually)

[dor baruch]

ok I decided to become pink toilet paper Manufacturer

[Bill M]

I am using now the Schatten Pickup Winder and my custom stronger winder but i have problem with the loose tansion

OP, You stated in your original post #1 that you had a problem with loose tension. I only merely stated that you should take care of your loose tension problem before advancing on to new machinery.

[SonnyW]

ok I decided to become pink toilet paper Manufacturer
[ATTACH=CONFIG]20438[/ATTACH]

In that case you will definitely need a cnc winder. Here's one for sale.
https://www.instrumentationexchange....2-e5553f1e5aff

Just kidding, but by the way I bet that whoever has this machinery for sale will wonder about why they suddenly got so many hits on their ad. Also dor, I liked the guitar photos you posted.

[David King]

Dor,
Make sure you fix the tension problem before you try to sell me a roll of TP. I hate the floppy TP rolls.