Glass Fiberfill Nylon Bobbin

[copperheadroads]

When you hear saying "wood breathes" it means that wood will increase & decrease moisture content ,depending on the moisture level in the air .
This is quite noticeable on the fretboard during the Dry winter months (at least up north ) on SOME guitars ,you start to feel the sharp fret ends ,cause the wood shrinks ,& when spring & summer comes again it expands & you sharps ends don't exist
I've seen this happens with a finished fretboard or an unfinished fretboard like rosewood or ebony .&
I don't believe for a moment type of finish affects tone ,I do believe thickness of finish does ,some of those thick poly finished cheap guitars are tone dead & I heard improvements after there were striped & refinished
The Nitro finished will breath more than a poly guitar ,But only after a couple of decades ,it can breath through the hairline cracks or "Finish Checking"

[SonnyW]

Another good one is people claiming you need a very thin nitro finish, as opposed to a thicker poly finish, and that the old guitars, which sound better, used thin nitro finishes. Take an old Fender guitar from the 70s. Strip off the lacquer (which is often acrylic automotive lacquer). What do you have? You have a thick coat of fullplast, a two part poly sealer. The stuff it practically bullet proof. Did it hard the tone of the guitar? Not one little bit.

I think Fender was using the fullerplast long before the 70's. This video is well worth watching for a lot of reasons, but skip to 5:04 you can see how much of it the shirtless guy here slopped on those old strats in 1957. I don't know for sure if that is fullerplast he his brushing on, but I bet it is, and maybe someone here knows and will chime in. In the next shot you can see some of the automotive lacquer too. The video says 1959, but it was later determined that it was shot in 1957 by Forrest White. I doubt that anyone will question that the guitars that are being made in this video have great tone. Any one of them would go for many thousands today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nswcA...hannel&list=UL

It is my own opinion that the hoopla about finishes originated in the violin and cello world. I believe it is true that the kind of finish or at least the thickness of it affects the tonal qualities of a violin or a hollow body guitar. But I think the kind of wood makes even more difference. IMO It is the stiffness of the wood that affects the tone. Stiffer equals brighter. If the finish can somehow affect the stiffness, then it can change the tone. If not, then it can't. That's why an ebony fretboard sounds brighter than a rosewood one. Or a maple neck vs. mahogany. But on a solid body, it is going to have to be some really thick finish to have much chance of doing that.

On the other hand, I have noticed that in my own small sample of archtop and semi-hollow guitars, the tone does seem to improve after the first few years. I don't think that they are really as dry as they are ever going to get when new. I have a nitro finished Gibson CS 339 that has improved significantly in about 6 years, which I attribute to additional drying out of the wood, not the nitro finish. I really wish that I had miked the top thickness through the f-holes when I bought it because I swear it seems to me the top is a bit thinner and more resonant now than when it was new.

Edit: Well after doing a little more research that could more likely be Sherwin Williams Homoclad sealer he is brushing on there. But it still went on thick, and it isn't nitro. According to several posts on various forums, that are attributed to Mark Kendrick, they usually dipped the bodies in a 55 gallon drum filled with the Homoclad. And it was used before they switched to the Ful-O-Plast. which happened in 1967. Homoclad is a mineral oil based product, but according to the MSDS, the solids content in Homoclad is Ethylbenzene which is the raw material for producing polystyrene.

[Steve Conner]

The bobbin is between the inner turns of the winding and the pole pieces, which are often grounded. So its dielectric constant could have a minor effect there, if the inner turns happened to be the hot end of the coil.

Don't confuse mechanical and electrical Q factor, they are completely unrelated. For instance, glass has a high mechanical Q but its electrical properties are so-so. Teflon is a spongy, waxy mess with high mechanical damping (very low mechanical Q) but an excellent electrical Q.

[dor baruch]

ok...
Of course you do not have to believe me and everyone have their own opinion
All I represent is after many experiments i did,Please explain to me what part do you not agree
Can you forget that we are talking about guitar and consider only the physics of the matter?
Also debate about the amount of influence is subjective and is completely different for me from Saying that there are 0 impact

do you think the coating of acoustic instruments is not important? the guitar wood should not breathe only make it dry before you made it a musical instrument (nitro is jast Softer Material, the Stiffness and elasticity of the material has a great impact on the resonans and damping of the material) (read acoustics absorption of wood)
Warmoth poly finish is paper thin and this is why thay sound good also prs and esp use thin finish
i used to have Experiments using speaker who shakes the guitar at different frequencies
Vibration frequency and intensity changed with different coatings on the same guitar and with no coating at all

*the finishes Thickness have a Effect on the resonance of the...
Just Pull a Guitar coating with thick coating made of poly or epoxy
If you do not hear a big difference i think i have no way to win in this debate
by the way my nitro finish have Exceptionally alot of Resin and i use nitro Sanding sealer its have plastics but small amount of it
Lacquer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[David Schwab]

When you hear saying "wood breathes" it means that wood will increase & decrease moisture content ,depending on the moisture level in the air .
This is quite noticeable on the fretboard during the Dry winter months (at least up north ) on SOME guitars ,you start to feel the sharp fret ends ,cause the wood shrinks ,& when spring & summer comes again it expands & you sharps ends don't exist
I've seen this happens with a finished fretboard or an unfinished fretboard like rosewood or ebony .&
I don't believe for a moment type of finish affects tone ,I do believe thickness of finish does ,some of those thick poly finished cheap guitars are tone dead & I heard improvements after there were striped & refinished
The Nitro finished will breath more than a poly guitar ,But only after a couple of decades ,it can breath through the hairline cracks or "Finish Checking"

I pointed out the thing about the moisture exchange. Nitro doesn't breathe. It doesn't allow moisture to pass any better or worse than any other film finish. Thats a myth. Also the whole idea of putting a finish on a guitar is to stop stuff like that from happening. It happens to bare fingerboards precisely because they do not have a finish on them. You don't want your guitar to go through big changes in moisture content. It can crack the wood because the wood can't move. Furniture makers leave large panels floating for that reasons.

As far as thick poly finishes ruing the tone; Explain how that would happen? What is a thin layer of something doing to the wood to make the guitar sound different. What if it's not a wooden body. What then? If you really think about it, it makes no sense. The affect the body has on the tone is to absorb certain vibrations. Finish wont change that.

This can be easily proven. Plane down some wood to about 1/4" thick. Now hold the wood on one corner and tap it. It will ring like a bell. Now spray some lacquer on it and let it cure. Now tap it again. It still rings. This is also true if you clue several pieces of wood together, even though people swear that glue lines prevent the wood from vibrating. But after all that, it doesn't matter if the wood rings or not. Guitar have been made from Papier-mâché (Torres), and they sounded fine. Guitars have been made from aluminum, stone, plastic, you name it. They all sound like guitars.

The fullerplast on the Fenders didn't hurt the tone. A lot of high end acoustic guitar makers use epoxy as a pore filler.

There's just no evidence to show that a poly finish does anything to the tone that any other lacquer wouldn't. I think what some people do it sand off some wood when they strip bodies and wonder why the guitar sounds different.

[dor baruch]

David Schwab do you build guitars?
you have alot of good points like that glue lines dont prevent the wood from vibrating and its Truth
but to say that guitar made from aluminum, stone, plastic all sound the same and ok???
the Elasticity of the all guitar body can cange with Different finish and the Thickness, density
nitro is softer, whay do you think the good guitar makers insist to use specific finish and focus on ultra-thin thickness if thay can?
Poly vs Nitro Guitar Finishes - Ed Roman Guitars

if you make a real thin epoxy,poly,good oil its sound no worse then nitro (so the thicknesses is more importent then the type)
nitro Dissolved in Each new layer so the end resolt is thiner

[LtKojak]

I hate to tell you this, but Ed Roman's been known as the bigger BS'er known to mankind.

I don't think that anything coming from him is credible.

[dor baruch]

ok what about prs?
PRS Factory Tour part 3 - Finishing and Assembly - YouTube
even prs use polyurethane and urethane but sand most of it after
and thay have big room that use that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=138gO...feature=relmfu

[David Schwab]

ok what about prs?
PRS Factory Tour part 3 - Finishing and Assembly - YouTube
even prs use polyurethane and urethane but sand most of it after
and thay have big room that use that
SPDI UV Guitar Finishing or Refinishing UV Booth and Handheld UV Curing Demo - YouTube

But they are still using poly right? Poly doesn't have to be thick. It's done that way because you can't spray more coats and have it bond together like with nitro. You will get witness lines. So often poly is sprayed on, UV cured and they just leave it like that.

I think David King here is using a UV cured poly?

Do I build guitars? Yes. I haven't built any in a few years, but I have made quite a number of them over the years, and at one time worked for American Showster guitars and built these things:



My own stuff looks like this:



The AS guitars used a nylon primer and duco acrylic auto lacquer. My guitars were done with 2 part catalyzed nitro lacquer.

[dor baruch]

David Schwab nice guitars
I think we think a lot more similar than we are willing to agree jast the debate is mainly about the amount of influence we jast came to different conclusions
and i Respect your opinion

but we get Off-topic i need to find a Company that will build for me custom bobbins (even from plastic) do you know one or have a idea how to find one
Maybe I should try to make bobbins myself in some way? Do you know what it takes to do so?
I'd love to get help from anyone willing to help

+what is a good way to Sign my pickup Professionally?

[frankfalbo]

I think you are over analyzing this stuff, and will find it doesn't really matter.
Having said that, Frank Falbo from, Duncan says he could hear a different between the nylon bobbins and regular plastic.

This is the test you're referring to. It is not perfect, but it was followed by a more controlled, more "in tune" test that did nothing more than confirm everything that is audible in this test. One of these is glass filled nylon.

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t23962/

To the original post: It can be difficult to find someone willing to sell you GFN bobbins. The GFN requires special set up, and it also puts more wear and tear on the mold over time. Many places would prefer you have a mold specifically made for GFN.

As a side note, I love this material for bobbins. Fender uses a higher percentage GFN in some of their bobbins but the shape and size of the bobbin is extremely different from a traditional HB bobbin. So those bobbins are not suitable for any kind of experiment, or usage in my view.

[David Schwab]

This is the test you're referring to. It is not perfect, but it was followed by a more controlled, more "in tune" test that did nothing more than confirm everything that is audible in this test. One of these is glass filled nylon.

http://music-electronics-forum.com/t23962/

I have to say that listening to this again just now with a pair of Sennheiser HD515 headphones, I don't hear any difference between those clips.

[frankfalbo]

I have to say that listening to this again just now with a pair of Sennheiser HD515 headphones, I don't hear any difference between those clips.

...bass players...(shakes head)

[David Schwab]

...bass players...(shakes head)

Or lets put it this way, no more different than any two recordings of the same guitar would be, and nothing you will hear in a mix.

(I've been playing guitar since I was 12... bass actually came a few years later )