Problem with consistency

[big_teee]

Okay I got my new wire yesterday and made 3 strat pickups in a row with 7800 turns each and they all came out with the same specs (within a small range). The tape Terry told me about is definitely a huge help; it is very easy to get a good wrap that curves around to the flats for foolproof coverage. I'm thinking about buying a lifetime supply so that that problem stays permanently solved. It's hard for me to imagine making more than 100 strat pickups in the remainder of my years, so that is doable.

I tried several more, trying to get a particular sound out of a guitar using my bucket of rejects, where I just cut off the old coil, clean it up, tape it, and rewind. The ones that had problems all had oddities with the flats - flanging at the ends, warping, etc. I think between the tape and warping, that covers the problems I was having. The more I look at my mistakes and think about it, I think all my bad pickups were shorting against the magnets.

I think my problem with electrical tape is that I'm not adequately precise with it. My bobbins aren't super precise, - just a rough wooden jig for gluing them up - and I was just cutting electrical tape in half lengthwise with scissors. I would wrap it around the edges and make two laps - top and bottom - and that was it. I think my technique was not adequate for the task.

Hand winding: One idea I had about the problem I was having was that I was stripping off insulation on my traverse guide. I was just hand winding to try to isolate the problem. Also I am just building my own instrument for my own use - so once I get one acceptable pickup for each position I'm done and all the spools and the winder go back on the shelf, possibly for years. I think I'm satisfied now that using Terry's floral tape and working with sturdy, true bobbins will solve the problems I was having, so I can proceed with auto traverse.

Thanks everyone for all help!

Michael

Glad to hear your getting it worked out.
Gluing the magnets, narrowing your wire guide stops, and medium tension, will help on the flatwork flaring.
On the flatwork, I use Liquid Super Glue.
Set the magnets in the flatwork like you want.
Then run a little super glue around the magnets.
Then wipe most off so it's thin.
I do the bottom, then let it dry.
Then do the top.
After everything dries, then tape the magnets.
Good Luck,
T

[Rick Turner]

You've learned one of the most important things: You have to start with near-perfect parts to get near-perfect results. Your pickups will only be as consistent as your parts and your winding technique.

[kayakerca]

The ones that had problems all had oddities with the flats - flanging at the ends, warping, etc. I think between the tape and warping, that covers the problems I was having.
Michael

I'm still new to this and it's only a hobby for me, but when I first started I had flaring at the ends. I changed 2 things. First, I moved from hammering in the magnets and top flatwork to pressing inthe magnets and top flatwork with a 1 ton arbor press and metal spacer jigs. Second, I originally had the bobbins mounted on the winder with a wood (hardboard) baseplate and a wood outer side mounting plate held to the mounting plate with a long 4-40 screw. I moved to a metal mounting baseplate and a metal outside mounting plate, and again, held on by a long 4-40 screw. Prior to those two changes, all my single coil pickups were flaired to a degree. After the change none have been flaired. Don't which which of the changes had the most impact, but they both were improvements in my mind. You can get an idea of the mount from the prototype stage winder picture below.

[Kindly Killer]

Wow so cool. And using a PIC controlled stepper would instantly cure all counting problems, too.

I might have to copy your homework!

Do you have enough metal working skills to make those parts yourself, or did you find bar stock in the right shape, or what? I might seriously like to do exactly as you suggest but my metal working skills are nonexistant beyond hacksaw, drill press, bend in a vise, and files LOL.

I'm still new to this and it's only a hobby for me, but when I first started I had flaring at the ends. I changed 2 things. First, I moved from hammering in the magnets and top flatwork to pressing inthe magnets and top flatwork with a 1 ton arbor press and metal spacer jigs. Second, I originally had the bobbins mounted on the winder with a wood (hardboard) baseplate and a wood outer side mounting plate held to the mounting plate with a long 4-40 screw. I moved to a metal mounting baseplate and a metal outside mounting plate, and again, held on by a long 4-40 screw. Prior to those two changes, all my single coil pickups were flaired to a degree. After the change none have been flaired. Don't which which of the changes had the most impact, but they both were improvements in my mind. You can get an idea of the mount from the prototype stage winder picture below.

[kayakerca]

Wow so cool. And using a PIC controlled stepper would instantly cure all counting problems, too.

I might have to copy your homework!

Do you have enough metal working skills to make those parts yourself, or did you find bar stock in the right shape, or what? I might seriously like to do exactly as you suggest but my metal working skills are nonexistant beyond hacksaw, drill press, bend in a vise, and files LOL.

It does that and more! Specify the bobbin width, tpl, wind direction, speed. . .

I made all the hardware myself on a small milling machine. There are those who are willing do fabricate hardware around if you don't have access otherwise.





As much fun making it as using it.

[David King]

I note that Rick is winding electrical tape around ceramic bars not alnico. Last I checked ceramic is not conductive so slightly less to worry about in that situation.

Regarding machining winder parts in metal. If you have a basic tool-set you could accomplish functional versions in wood. They probably won't wear out in your lifetime.

[Joe Gwinn]

I think my problem with electrical tape is that I'm not adequately precise with it. My bobbins aren't super precise, - just a rough wooden jig for gluing them up - and I was just cutting electrical tape in half lengthwise with scissors. I would wrap it around the edges and make two laps - top and bottom - and that was it. I think my technique was not adequate for the task.

One approach is to make the bobbin width exactly correct for the tape you are using. This will be precise, and a whole lot faster than trying to hand-cut to width.

Hand winding: One idea I had about the problem I was having was that I was stripping off insulation on my traverse guide.

I use a bit of teflon tubing as a wire guide, but drilling and countersinking a hole in a piece of delrin also works.

[SonnyW]

I think my problem with electrical tape is that I'm not adequately precise with it. My bobbins aren't super precise, - just a rough wooden jig for gluing them up - and I was just cutting electrical tape in half lengthwise with scissors. I would wrap it around the edges and make two laps - top and bottom - and that was it. I think my technique was not adequate for the task.
Michael

You could try using 1/2 inch tape, for example a layer or two of plain old clear or magic scotch tape, (or usually what I use is some of the 1/2 inch red rubylith tape that printers used to use for artwork layups. I use the rubylith because it is a hard pvc based tape and far cheaper than the kapton tape and just as adequate for this job. It's a little hard to find but it is still out there, and I have a stock of it put back. I don't see why masking tape or floral tape would be a problem either, I'd just rather have the tape be a little harder than that.) I have also stopped trying to cut tape exactly to width, or using 1/4 inch tape and making two passes. Both of those methods to me are more of a pain than it is worth. I also believe that on strat pickups the spacing between the forbon affects the tone a little, and I'd rather put up with some curling on the edges of the tape than mess with my spacings or try to trim the tape. If you put the 1/2 inch clear tape on fairly tight and centered on a bobbin with spacing say .425 or so, it will curl over a little on each edge next to the forbon, and be double thick at those spots, but after a couple of layers of wire it won't matter.

[David King]

I often end up cutting a custom width roll of tape on the lathe using a fresh zip blade. The thin, clear packing tape works just fine. I like cutting about 1/64" wider than my bobbin height. It takes a couple of plywood discs with an arbor to mount the roll on but then you could do the same thing in a drill press.

[Rick Turner]

The true genius of Leo Fender was that he knew how to work with what he could easily get. He was the Henry Ford of the electric guitar. He didn't truly invent much, but he sure industrialized it.

Don't go chasing the ghosts themselves...chase the spirit of the ghost chasers. If you're trying to make very basic pickups...and there's not much more basic than Leo's early designs, then trying to get overly complicated about it will take you far afield. Keep It Simple, Stupid. And don't hate me for that last word, it's just part of the saying. But you have to pay attention to the details...which themselves aren't really too far afield. Maybe you should dip the bobbin/magnet assemblies in shellac or lacquer before winding. That's the kind of simple solution that a Leo would have gone for.

Just remember that Leo Fender's favorite machine was a metal punch press. KACHUNG! Another two bucks in the bank. KACHUNG! Another two bucks in the bank. KACHUNG! Another two bucks in the bank.

The Gospel according to Leo was not art, it was commerce, and he was brilliant at delivering more guitar for less cost than anyone had ever done before the Broadcaster/Nocaster/Telecaster. Follow the money...

[SonnyW]

The true genius of Leo Fender was that he knew how to work with what he could easily get. He was the Henry Ford of the electric guitar. He didn't truly invent much, but he sure industrialized it.

Don't go chasing the ghosts themselves...chase the spirit of the ghost chasers. If you're trying to make very basic pickups...and there's not much more basic than Leo's early designs, then trying to get overly complicated about it will take you far afield. Keep It Simple, Stupid. And don't hate me for that last word, it's just part of the saying. But you have to pay attention to the details...which themselves aren't really too far afield. Maybe you should dip the bobbin/magnet assemblies in shellac or lacquer before winding. That's the kind of simple solution that a Leo would have gone for.

Just remember that Leo Fender's favorite machine was a metal punch press. KACHUNG! Another two bucks in the bank. KACHUNG! Another two bucks in the bank. KACHUNG! Another two bucks in the bank.

The Gospel according to Leo was not art, it was commerce, and he was brilliant at delivering more guitar for less cost than anyone had ever done before the Broadcaster/Nocaster/Telecaster. Follow the money...

I couldn't agree more about keeping it basic, and I do dip my bobbins in lacquer. Twice in fact. It helps hold the magnets and helps seal the forbon. That's what Leo did too, as far as I can tell. At least for me, adding the tape is just the old belt and suspenders technique. I don't think Leo would have had much of a problem with taping, it takes only a half a minute to stick some tape on there. My guess is he didn't tape them back then because at the time the pickups hadn't had enough years of time on them to fail by shorting to the magnets, but he probably would have done something if he knew it could happen. I'm not sure that I agree that it was all about commerce to him, or he wouldn't have resisted so many of the cost cutting changes that his engineers wanted to do to the amps and guitars, and that CBS did do, as soon as he was out of the picture. And if it was all about commerce maybe he wouldn't have gone to rosewood fingerboards after seeing how some of the worn maple fingerboards looked on TV. I think probably he liked things to be as basic and simple as was practical, but not at the expense of function and quality. I'm no expert, but having worked on a few old 60's strats and teles, the quality is always and definitely there even if they were less expensive than the competition when made, and a lot of the recent stuff I work on really just doesn't compare that well for tone and playability, unless you get into the really high priced guitars. We are probably saying the same things, but I think pretty much nobody wants the absolute cheapest, simplest guitar, they all want the best quality for the money they can afford to pay.

[SonnyW]

Hand winding: One idea I had about the problem I was having was that I was stripping off insulation on my traverse guide. I was just hand winding to try to isolate the problem. Also I am just building my own instrument for my own use - so once I get one acceptable pickup for each position I'm done and all the spools and the winder go back on the shelf, possibly for years. I think I'm satisfied now that using Terry's floral tape and working with sturdy, true bobbins will solve the problems I was having, so I can proceed with auto traverse.
Michael

Insomnia again tonight. On the wire guide for the auto traverse, and the problem with stripping off the insulation, one thing that has worked well for me is a glass tubing wire guide. It is smooth as glass ha and it is very precise on holding the wire in the exact location. I made mine from a piece of capillary tubing maybe an inch long and with I think it was a 1 mm bore, but a broken thermometer would also work just as well. I just cut the tubing with the usual lab technique of scoring it with a three cornered file and then hand sanding both ends with 220 grit wet or dry paper then fire polishing both ends. I had to do a couple of them to get one that had a nice smooth opening at either end. Then I glued it to a piece of G-10 in place of the sawed groove in a piece of nylon that was the original wire guide in my winder. It has been working great for years. This is the secret of the ages I am giving you here. This method is not for everyone, and granted, it is a bit of a pain to thread the magnet wire through, but it does work great. I think I have about 10 feet of that capillary tubing left and if anyone here wants one or two just pm me a request with your mailing address and I would not mind to do my best to make you a few and send them gratis just for the goodwill of it.

[Kindly Killer]

Yeah that looks really cool and fun to tinker with. Couple questions:

How does your traverse work? I've read a little about CNC and seen some pics of machines, and most of them seem to use a screw for this type of motion, but yours looks different.

What's that software? Did you adapt something specifically for pickups? Is it an OS project?

[kayakerca]

Yeah that looks really cool and fun to tinker with. Couple questions:

How does your traverse work? I've read a little about CNC and seen some pics of machines, and most of them seem to use a screw for this type of motion, but yours looks different.

I used a Haydon Captive Linear Actuator. The one on the left of the images.

HAYDON HYBRID LINEAR ACTUATORS

It is a screw type setup, only the screw aspect is 100% internal and all you see is the shaft move back and forth (as in does not rotate). You mount a deck on the end that holds the tensioner and wire guide. The one I used I bought directly from Haydon and was VERY expensive, but I have bought others on ebay since for $35 - $50 area. Like this one:

Haydon Linear Actuator Stepper Size 23 | eBay

I actually bought one from this group just in case I build another CNC winder. I thought the resolution might be better than what I chose. It also has a 1" stroke which will cover the bobbin height of any pickup you are ever likely to wind. The one on my winder has a 2" stroke.

The only tricks are to make sure the stroke is long enough for the bobbin heights you want to wind (X2 at least) and to decide what resolution the stepper needs to be so that it doesn't freak out at speeds and tpl you want to wind at. By freak out I mean the stepper could lock up. In hindsight, I would have bought a different resolution than I did as if I wanted to wind at say 30 tpl, I'd probably want to slow my wind speed down to ~ 600 rpm as the traverser stepper might freak out trying to go that fast. But then again, I haven't tried so I'm not sure. I just know I'm crazy happy with how it all turned out. I've only wound around 60 pickups on the CNC Winder (because I'm just a hobbyist), and have yet to have the darn thing freak out on me. I like to wind at ~ 1,100 rpm. Just seems like a nice speed when it's whirling around.

What's that software? Did you adapt something specifically for pickups?

I wrote the code in Visual Basic 2010 and designed the interface layout myself with some guidance from Steve as I was not a coder. I started with a generic chunk of code for the controllers I used, but by the time I was done, it was 99.9% my stuff (aka 99.9% poorly written but totally functional) and .1% of the original. I am not a coder, so I bought an aftermarket "Intro to Visual Basic" book and learned how to code enough to get the job done. Also need the manuals and dll for the specific controllers as no intro to programming books will have anything on the interfacing aspect with the hardware.

Is it an OS project?

Don't know what you mean by "OS".

[Kindly Killer]

WOW respect. That is hardcore.

I've decided that the next step for me (also hobbyist winder) is a CNC winder. Like you said - just for the fun of doing it. It's not like I need any more pickups. Coding sounds like a much steeper learning curve than any other part. Did you look around for available software? I'm kinda surprised there isn't something already for coils in general that could be used... Yours looks SUPER nice, tho. I'm jealous of the machine, but not of the work that went into coding LOL

OS is Open Source - you know like SourceForge projects where you can download the code or a compiled version. I was hoping your software was something with a community and documentation and all that.