something that grinds my gears

[big_teee]

Sure, I'll shoot some photos next week. I'll be working away from the shop the next two days, but will be glad to share my setup. I had some pix up in the forum somewhere from when I first got it several years ago. They are around somewhere, but definitely don't represent its present state anyway.

As to a 230AM, specifically, not being used historically, I don't know that "a 230AM" was or wasn't. Probably not "a 230AM", I would guess. It would be an unnecessary expense for a guitar company to order a Stevens with all the unnecessary extra features not used for pickup coils. But we do know that similar George Stevens machines from the same period were used and the only difference is that mine has extra options, which can be removed or disabled. The main power transmission path and traverse are all the same, if setup as such. Same parts connected the same way. I've even got the original 4 conductor reversible Bodine motor. So I definitely believe, "an incarnation of it" was absolutely used for pickups, historically. Why do you think this one is significantly different?

Sounds like a fine machine, and I bet it makes Fine Pickups!
With or without the vintage Pixie Dust.
T

[ReWind]

It is pretty clear you have no evidence your 230AM model machine was used by Gibson or Fender to wind golden era pickups. So it would be appropriate that you not represent it as model Gibson or Fender used. Your machine does not even sound similar to the fine wire models that Gibson did use to wind P-90's in the 50's. Geo Stevens made me their very last fine wire machine from replacement parts they still had on the shelf. Other than the counter and the oiling method, my fine wire machine is mechanically the same as the one Gibson used in the 50's. I paid $8K for Geo Stevens to make the machine, the funny part is I have bought 5 used since for as low as $200! So it is not like you cannot find the right machine, which your 230AM is not.

Ohhhhhkaaay… So much for a conversation about cool old gear, I guess? Wow.

[David Schwab]

Ohhhhhkaaay… So much for a conversation about cool old gear, I guess? Wow.

I don't think it's ever been proven that the winder used even matters. For example, many Fender pickups were hand wound on very simple machines. Hand winding is pretty random, but yet pickups that you hand wind will sound the same if you keep all other things consistent. That removes most of the winding pattern/winder from making a difference.

I think even just saying "hand wound" or "same vintage winder as used by…" is all marketing. Does ANYONE who makes Fender style pickps use a sewing machine motor with a rubber band on it? Leo felt the rubber band was very important, and also used that trick at G&L. But lots of people make great sounding Fender style pickups.

I'm sure there are minute differences in tone from a PAF made by Duncan, or ThroBak, or Lollar. But not enough to say one is bad and one is good. The only thing someone has as a reference is how the pickup sounds in their guitar, through their amp, and with them playing it.

You either make a good sounding pickup, or you don't. And "good" is pretty damn subjective.

As far as the "golden age" of pickups, I'd say that is now. There are more great pickups on the market than you can shake a stick at. back then you had very limited choices, and you had to be very lucky to get an exceptional pickup.

[JGundry]

These are distinctions in tone and detail that are important to customers looking for vintage reproduction pickups. I focus on those destinctions and details. Customers that are focused on those same distictions and details deserve accurate info..

But I agree, there are many, many, many, many, many, many pickup makers out there that make fine sounding pickups. Many hand wind and many have cool machines.

ReWind, I think I came off a bit harsh. My point was there is no benefit to claiming you have a machine that was used to wind golden era pickups when you don't. Getting the correct one which is available for reasonable money makes sense. Your 230AM I'm sure is a cool machine, but no evidence exists that it was used for vintage pickups, so why claim that?

[Possum]

Roy Ayres

"By the time I got to Fender, the initial development of essentially all of the pickups was over, and the designs were set in concrete. Except for the Coronado pickups, virtually all of the pickups were built from scratch in the Fender plant. Although I'm getting off to the side of the question asked by Jeff, I'll relate what I recall about the manufacturing methods -- which were Leo's invention and which determined the Fender tone. Round Alnico 5 magnets (that had not yet been magnetized) were used. The top and bottom of the pickup form (made from vulcanized fiber) were placed in a special "jig" that held them the right distance apart and the magnets were pressed into the holes in the fiber, thus forming a spool on which the wire could be wound. The pickups were wound by hand on small coil winders powered by a small "universal" electric motor (actually, a sewing-machine motor) with the speed controlled by a foot potentiometer. Number 42 copper wire was used on almost all of the pickups, although I recall that Number 43 was used on a few. There was also the red or copper-colored wire and green wire. The windings on the pickups were "random" windings -- that is, not laid down in any given pattern of layers, but criss-crossing in a random fashion. The main difference between the various models was the size and thickness of the spools and the number of turns of copper wire. A small, mechanical "Root" counter was attached to the winder and used to determine the number of turns. The women would run the speed up to some fantastic number or RPM's and slow down when they approached the required number of turns. The completed pickups were placed in a huge electromagnet and "zapped" to magnetize the magnets. If you walked within a hundred feet or so of the magnetizer, you could kiss your watch goodbye. As a final step, some models were dipped in wax, some dipped in shellac, and some had a waxed string wound around the outside.

While I was there, the plant purchased a special coil-winding machine that would wind a large number of pickups simultaneously and was intended save big bucks in labor costs. They finally quit using the thing after they found out that it broke wire like crazy. I don't know if they ever got the problem ironed out, but they went back to the manual method and continued that way as long as I was there."

http://www.roysfootprints.com/

[JGundry]

Roy Ayres

While I was there, the plant purchased a special coil-winding machine that would wind a large number of pickups simultaneously and was intended save big bucks in labor costs. They finally quit using the thing after they found out that it broke wire like crazy. I don't know if they ever got the problem ironed out, but they went back to the manual method and continued that way as long as I was there."

http://www.roysfootprints.com/

Interesting but if you do the math from Roy's bio something does not ad up. Roy started working at Fender in 1969 and Fender was machine winding well before that. The machine that was breaking down was probably the a Meteor ME-301 which Fender and Gibson both used and Gibson still uses. The friction disk in these gets ruined easily. At some point in the 70's parts were hard to find. The only place to get replacement parts for these machines now is in Poland.

The first auto coil winder known to be used by Fender is a Coweco that they have had since 1956. Yes I know Fender was hand winding in the 50's. But they still have this Coweco they bought 1956 in the Custom shop.