alnico treatments....

[Possum]

After rewinding a famous guitar player's '63 strat I've come to the conclusion that the magnets back then are definitely different. So is there a way to "soften" modern alnico rods, by heating/annealing etc. Open to ideas on this, there is something I think that changed in modern magnet production from back then and I don't buy this magnet "aging" bullshit, degaussing magnets doesn't make them warmer sounding.....

[DoctorX]

It might be interesting to know...

exactly how they made alnico magnets in the 50's compared to how they make them now. What kind of manufacturing techniques / equipment was used back then? You know computers or any kind of computer numerical control weren't used for process control back then (well, it sure isn't likely), so the question is how has the process changed between now and then? I'd be willing to bet the modernization of the process took away some 'intangible' quality that resulted in magnets from back then being different than the ones made today. Everything is so homogenized because of computer control, that maybe the quality of the older magnets that makes them desirable, was 'made obsolete' by manufacturing advances...

don't know for certain, but it 's a thought.

DoctorX

[madialex]

exactly how they made alnico magnets in the 50's compared to how they make them now. What kind of manufacturing techniques / equipment was used back then? You know computers or any kind of computer numerical control weren't used for process control back then (well, it sure isn't likely), so the question is how has the process changed between now and then? I'd be willing to bet the modernization of the process took away some 'intangible' quality that resulted in magnets from back then being different than the ones made today. Everything is so homogenized because of computer control, that maybe the quality of the older magnets that makes them desirable, was 'made obsolete' by manufacturing advances...

don't know for certain, but it 's a thought.

DoctorX

You are right. Maybe there is something to the whole old fashioned way huh
The old saying, they don't make em like they used too rings true in more ways than 1.

[Zhangliqun]

You are right. Maybe there is something to the whole old fashioned way huh
The old saying, they don't make em like they used too rings true in more ways than 1.

I suppose the ratios of the various metals weren't quite as exact as now. What was Alnico 5 back then might be considered "Alnico 4.87" or something nowadays.

[Dave Kerr]

I seem to recall Steve Kersting mentioning that he'd bake his alnico mags @325F or so for somewhere around 45 minutes.
edit - close, 350F for an hour, archive search here:
http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...php/t-375.html
second edit - some crank who'll remain nameless then chimed in with this:
personally this tempering thing I think is one of those myths. If you want to knock off excess charge in alnico just push them together a couple times repelling eachother and they will hit their natural balance level. We had a big thread on tempering a couple years ago on ampage and one knowledgeable guy explained that alnico is tempered in its manufacturing process, its a metallurgical thing, not a gauss thing. Anyway my take on the whole thread at the end of all the info everyone came up with is that its pointless to boil your magnets or cook them (unless you use lots of garlic). It seems to me that people who do this stuff do it out of habit and not for any measurable tone results. Degaussing is real simple and you can hear the results, I DO use that one alot.

[Dr. Guitar]

to acheive your "perfect" gauss

I seem to recall Steve Kersting mentioning that he'd bake his alnico mags @325F or so for somewhere around 45 minutes.
edit - close, 350F for an hour, archive search here:
http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...php/t-375.html
second edit - some crank who'll remain nameless then chimed in with this:
personally this tempering thing I think is one of those myths. If you want to knock off excess charge in alnico just push them together a couple times repelling eachother and they will hit their natural balance level. We had a big thread on tempering a couple years ago on ampage and one knowledgeable guy explained that alnico is tempered in its manufacturing process, its a metallurgical thing, not a gauss thing. Anyway my take on the whole thread at the end of all the info everyone came up with is that its pointless to boil your magnets or cook them (unless you use lots of garlic). It seems to me that people who do this stuff do it out of habit and not for any measurable tone results. Degaussing is real simple and you can hear the results, I DO use that one alot.

So let's say you had a fully charged magnet, but it was a little bright. Push North and North together to take away some of that charge, and it should mellow out a little?

[mkat]

I don't know much about this, but I do know that annealing has a very different affect than just boiling or cooking in a home oven.

From what I understand, you can quite easily anneal a set of magnets to test (safely that is). However, understanding the annealing process would be interesting, maybe there is more to it than just heating and cooling. This is something I was thinking about after reading some information in the archives, but don't have time to experiment with at the moment until I look into it further.

[Possum]

boiling with garlic....

the boiling thing is bogus waste of time in my opinion. Whats the difference between that and the magnets naturally cooling down after casting? I think that boiling thing came from some really bad Korean magnets that wouldn't hold a charge or something way back when. I think maybe the difference between then and now is that maybe they are using oxygen free casting environments is all I can think of. Metals mixes doesn' thave that huge an effect really, most of the mix is iron. Getting these magnet suppliers to talk about this stuff is impossible..

[mkat]

What about different percentages with different recipes? What were the recipes back then compared to now? If alnico is supposed to contain aluminium, nickel and cobalt (is cobalt always used?), what of the rest of it (can be different for different manufactures or even the same manufacturer)? Maybe there is something in the finishing process also.

But what about the hardness of the metal itself? Annealing could actually soften it. Then you'd have to figure the right temperature to heat to and so on. Will it affect the magnetic properties and to what extent if so?

[MattT]

It would be nice to know some details of the manufacturing process. My thinking is that they have made 'improvements' in the process that make the magnets either more stable, less liklely to crack/break, or are just more efficient (faster cooling?) or are cheaper. Or more generally, things that reduce losses or increase profit.

Kinda similar to analyzing why certain coils/pickups sound better than others...look back to the people winding them and put yourself in their shoes; "How can I make my job easier, more efficient, etc.?" Not saying those things make the pickup sound better...it might make it sound worse and it may have been the inefficient 'newbies' on the job that made the good sounding ones.

[Joe Gwinn]

exactly how they made alnico magnets in the 50's compared to how they make them now. What kind of manufacturing techniques / equipment was used back then? You know computers or any kind of computer numerical control weren't used for process control back then (well, it sure isn't likely), so the question is how has the process changed between now and then? I'd be willing to bet the modernization of the process took away some 'intangible' quality that resulted in magnets from back then being different than the ones made today. Everything is so homogenized because of computer control, that maybe the quality of the older magnets that makes them desirable, was 'made obsolete' by manufacturing advances...

No doubt the processes have changed in the last 50 years, and with research one can determine what changed.

But it won't do us any good unless we are going manufacture our own alnico metal.

That leaves us with figuring out what the resulting magnetic and electrical difference is, so we can test modern materials to see how closely they exhibit the desired behavior.

From his postings, this is what Possum spent the last five years doing.

[Dave Kerr]

From the overview of the manufacuring process at Duramag's site, it sure sounds as though there's lots of room for variance in the production process. Of particular interest is Alnico is largely comprised of Iron, Cobalt, Aluminum, and Nickel with trace amounts of other elements used to tailor the alloy’s magnetic and mechanical properties.
Duramag
edit - perhaps the more relevant changes are upstream of the alnico fabrication process, such as the use of recycled aluminum vs smelting from bauxite? Different processes, different contaminants, etc?

[Possum]

stonewall...

My magnet research was focused on rough cast magnets and is there anything unique about them. the results were only theories, more porosotiy, rough texture etc. no conclusive results though. Most of my research was into magnet wire, steel and authentic size specs of the original parts. Mostly I think the magnets weren't that huge an effect on the final tones. After reading the Duramag site it seems you would have to heat the magnets to 1000 degrees to change them, which would require a kiln probably, a small torch probably wouldn't work there. It also says they heat them to simulate aging and stabilize them from further magnetic loss over time, so maybe this idea of heating them to soften them won't work....

[mkat]

Ah, ok. I was initially thinking of heating them till they are red hot with a butane torch. If there is no change, then a friend has a small kiln that we can use to soften them.

[Possum]

kiln

yeah you gotta heat it to 1000 degrees farenheit, they will lose their magnetic charge and will need to be recharged afterwards, let me know how it goes....