Vintage Plain Enamel Wire Differences

[JGundry]

Does anyone have an opinion on the differences between old formula plain enamel magnet wire and the current wire that REA makes for MWS?. I was told that the old formula that AWC and others used to make required the use of benzene and that new regulations made the handling of benzene and associated costs prohibitive for anyone to continue using the old formula for plain enamel wire. The old formula AWC is certainly the correct color and feel for a PAF. Opinions?

[kevinT]

Is AWC American Wire Corp of Connecticut? I just bought some AWC 42 PE dated Feb 2004. I haven't tried it yet. I'm still using some Elektrisola (spelling) 42 PE that I have. I am very satisfied with Elektrisola. When did the regulations take effect regarding the handling of Benzene? My AWC 42 PE has the permanent marker smell too. I'm just wondering whether it is their old formula.

[JGundry]

Yes, American Wire Corp. of Connecticut. I have a case of that stuff and it does have a hint of old permanent marker smell to it which I assume is the benzene. I don't really know the time line for regulations for it's use. From what I understand Elektrisola stopped making PE also a few years ago but that they are going to be coming out with a reformulated PE soon that does not use benzene in the formula.

[Possum]

Elektrisola???

I never saw any Elektrisola PE, five years ago when I started this stuff Essex was what everyone was selling, rebanded of course. Shit, that would be awesome if they come out with something decent, the REA stuff is nowhere as good as the Essex stuff used to be. I'd like to hear more about that, and who is going to sell it?

[Possum]

PS....

I think the PE formulas are all proprietary, they won't tell you their formulas, its just oleo-resin whatchamacallit stuff.....

[NightWinder]

I think the PE formulas are all proprietary, they won't tell you their formulas, its just oleo-resin whatchamacallit stuff.....

Oleoresinous Enamel- Just tell them you don't have time for young dick games Batman!!

[JGundry]

I was told by a salesman at BAE Wire that Elektrisola was going to be releasing a PE that they claimed would be every bit as good as the old formula. The salesman seemed to have a wait and see attitude about it. He did not think they would be getting any samples of it before February. I called BAE because they were listing some of the AWC wire on Ebay. I wanted to see how much they had as I can't stand dealing with the salesman at Wirenetics. Most of what BAE has left is lighter brown colored PE from AWC. They may have a few short rolls of the dark stuff. I bought a sort of grab bag lot of AWC wire from them that was from several different runs from several different years ranging in size from .00275 .0025. After finally getting a good digital micrometer and taking reading from all of my vintage wire pulls from vintage humbuckers I have come to the conclusion that the lower end of the 42 AWG tolerance is also important to have on hand if you are making a PAF clone. I have not run across any PAF or early Patent sticker pickups with perfectly matched wire sizes which makes sense since they were machine wound. All of my samples range from .00275 to .00255. I think differences in wire tolerance might be as important a factor to added overtones as a coil offset. Need to have some time to experiment with this though.

[David Schwab]

I love in the BAE Wire brochure, it says in the description of Formvar:

Typical Applications:

Motors, random wound coils, solenoids, oil-filled & dry transformers, armature and generator winding.

[Possum]

????

I thought it was MWS sales guy who ticked you off? Wirenetics people are fucking IDIOTS. They don't know how to use a micrometer or they are liars. I bitched and bitched at them and said please tell me what you are sending, they tell me oh its .0027" and it shows up here as .0030" I still have a bunch of 2lb rolls of wire they sent me five years ago when I didn't know shit that are all wrong. All I can figure is they are crushing the wire as they read it and they are really that stupid. The dark AWC is dark because its the thick stuff .0030 and up most of it. The skinnier stuff isn't dark like that, that I have. One thing you've forgotten Jon is that the .0025 and thereabouts PAF wire is that size because it was STRETCHED. Seth said they stretched the wire a bit, hence the warped bobbins also. Vintage Guitar Magazine has that in one of their interviews.

All I gotta say is GOD BLESS Elektrisola if they are trying to bring back good plain enamel, REA needs to wake up and smell the roses, they will probably lose most of their business because of the mediocre and even bad crap they've been selling and the weird sizes they're making which doesn't coorelate at all to whats been made in the past. Its no wonder Gibson is using black dyed poly, they probably got tired of the REA crap and MWS's attitude of fuck all you guys we're the only one selling PE and we don't care about you, just send us your money.

If I can get .0027" plain enamel again all my business will go there. OK, lets all PRAY TOGETHER NOW, Oh Lordy Lordy Lordy, your sent yer only Son Of Tone, Jimi H. to the Earth planet to bring us the REVELATION OF TONE, the EVIL ONE (no not George Bush 1 and 2), the Anti-Toned One, to suck away our good wire, BRING BACK THE GOOD INSULATION, THE FAT BARE WIRE DIAMTER, THE LIBERATOR OF ROCK AND BLUES AND JAZZ AND BOP-A-BILLY, We WILL sacrafice our damn goats and old cars for your Holy Plain Enamel........amen, and halleliuah and pass the beer....

[JGundry]

The MWS sales guy was merely a little annoying but the Wirenetics salesman is a confrontational @$$.

Do you have the Seth Lover interview quote about wire stretch? I could not find it. I do think it is likely that the wire tensioners on the Leesona will stretch the wire as they are really designed for 40 AWG wire. But I don't really know how much yet. I told BAE I only wanted the darker wire, which got me mostly .0027 wire. The thinner build wire is a bit lighter in color but there is still very dark .0026 - .0025 wire out there. Duncan I think is intentionally mismatching O.D. wire within 42 AWG for the pickups that he winds on his Leesona and he is using a whisker disk to tension which I don't think is going to do much stretching of the wire.

My question is still that if benzene was such an integral part of the old formula for PE will it make any tonal difference if the new stuff is made without benzene. I really don't know but it seems that it would be likely that the formula would have to change to accommodate not using benzene.

[Possum]

.....

I'll see if I can find it here and attach. Interestingly I wound some of the dark .0030" wire and stretched it to get it to fit on a bobbin, I noticed the color of the wire changed to brown, I pulled a piece off and it had stretched down to more normal sizes. Benzene is just a solvent so who knows what they'll come up with thats eco frinedly

[JGundry]

Cool thanks Dave. I think what they are talking about there in that quote is that Seymour's Leesona which he uses for Seth Lovers is set up to use a Whisker disk for tension but there is also a little alligator clip that has felt in it's jaws retrofitted to each wire guide. I kind of assumed that this alligator clip was just an aid for operator set-up to keep the magnet wire from coming loose from the pulleys etc.. when switching bobbins but I bet this is really the added tension device they are talking about in that interview. It is just and extra friction felt tensioner right before the wire guide. The original wire guides for the Leesona 102 have a felt tensioner that comes before the wire passes through the pulley tensioning system.

[JGundry]

At about the 36:25 mark on the Seymour Duncan tour DVD there is a shot of a shelf labeled 42 PE that looks to be plain enamel wire on Elektrisola spools. Maybe they were doing custom runs of PE for Duncan and Gibson.

[kevinT]

Cool thanks Dave. I think what they are talking about there in that quote is that Seymour's Leesona which he uses for Seth Lovers is set up to use a Whisker disk for tension.

Are you speaking of the Azonic Whisker Disks or is there some other device by that name? I believe the Azonic disks are mainly used for dereeling wire...the device just sits on top of the spool and directs the wire away from the top of the spool so that it doesn't get snagged. It applies very slight tension during that process but not enough to stretch the wire. I have a few disks of various sizes but never needed to use them. They are very simple devices.

http://azonicproducts.com/wisker.html

[JGundry]

Are you speaking of the Azonic Whisker Disks or is there some other device by that name? I believe the Azonic disks are mainly used for dereeling wire...the device just sits on top of the spool and directs the wire away from the top of the spool so that it doesn't get snagged. It applies very slight tension during that process but not enough to stretch the wire. I have a few disks of various sizes but never needed to use them. They are very simple devices.

http://azonicproducts.com/wisker.html

I'm only familiar with the Azonic version. If you have the Seymour Duncan DVD there is a shot of the Tanac winder they use and it appears that the tension for that is also simply the whisker disk and a secondary felt pad tensioner that comes right before the wire guide. I am pretty sure that is all he is using for tension at least with the Leesona and the Tanac winder. It looks like a very basic DIY set up with a couple of pulleys a to guide the wire off the spool.