turns theory.....

[Possum]

I've been mulling this over in my mind and may do an experiment to see what the results might.

So you have two identical pickups, say a P90. Both wound to 8K.
One uses a wide random scatter, fewer turns per layer.
The other uses more turns per layer and less scattering.
WHICH ONE HAS MORE OUTPUT?

At its simplest, say you have a coil with 8 turns on it.
One has 4 turns on each layer.
The other has 2 turns on one layer and 6 turns on the other, which coil has higher output voltage?

[madialex]

I say more turns, less scatter has the more output....

[madialex]

I have found the more scatter I use, the more vintage flavor it has, on a single coil of course is what I am referring to..

[madialex]

Hmmm, now you have me second guessing myself. I will wind 2 tomorrow and see. Maybe the first one with close scatter start to finish and the second one either the first half tight scatter and then wide scatter or do individual layers like that, alternating them

[Possum]

output testing...

I think the thing to do would be to have a test signal put into the coil through a low wind coil laid on top of the pickup and keep the output level identical for each reading, then you could measure the voltage and see exactly which one is pumping out the juice.

I read somewhere that hand wound pickups have more output, but its in the Brosnac book if I remember right, been wondering about this. Theoretically the less scattered more even coil should have more output. I gotta try this out too....

[DrStrangelove]

TANSTAA simple pickup

TANSTAA means "They ain't no such thing as a".

If it a pickup had one layer only, more winds = more output.
The relationship is linear, less so with many layers.

Throw in 50-60 layers and a few thousand more winds
and you'll get more output, BUT

• increased inductance rolls off the treble and
• increased distributed capacitance gives you a resonant peak of some kind, while the
• increased internal resistance makes the pickup output more sensitive to the load from volume and tone controls.

That's why people are paying you the bucks: you guys
figured out how to balance all those things and make it
sound good.

-drh

[David Schwab]

To complicate matters.... how about 5,000 turns of 42 and 44? Same number of turns, but much different resistance. What would be the level/tonal difference between the two?

[Possum]

hold on....

you two guys missed the point. Nothing to do with how many winds, thats not what I am wondering.

Its about WINDS PER LAYER and LAYER/WINDS EFFECTS.

So , again, two IDENTICAL PICKUPS, IDENTICAL NUMBER OF WINDS. But one is HAND SCATTERED, so there are different numbers of turns on each layer. The other has for the sake of simplicity about the same numbers of turns per layer. Which one has more output in volts? Is there a difference? The "mythology" says there IS, but is it true?

[DrStrangelove]

oops.

you two guys missed the point. Nothing to do with how many winds, thats not what I am wondering.

Its about WINDS PER LAYER and LAYER/WINDS EFFECTS.

Oops. Sorry I missed your point, Dave.

Can we start with basic stuff?

If you have two pickups that are otherwise the same
but for amount of scatter in the wind, are the coils
physically the same size?

I'm thinking that more scatter means the
coil is larger than one with less scatter,
not by much, but enough to see and hear.

A bigger coil means that the outer winds sit in a weaker magnetic
field and see less change when a guitar string moves.

Less change in magnetic flux means lower output.

That's as far as I get until the next correction comes along.

-drh

[Possum]

...........

yeah it gets confusing, but yes will the bigger fatter more scattered coil have more voltage output or will the less scattered coil,both having the same amount of wire.

Again, back to another thought, if one coil has 12 turns and a second layer of 12 turns, the other coil has 8 turns on one layer and 16 on the next layer which coil will have more output? Meaning will the layer with 12 turns produce less voltage in combination with the output of the 16 turn layer, resulting in less overall output from the pickup? Is it really about how FAT the coil is or is there a "layer effect" where each layer produces its own voltage; so that alot of layers with few turns would proudce a weaker pickup? Think about it.....

[R.G.]

yeah it gets confusing, but yes will the bigger fatter more scattered coil have more voltage output or will the less scattered coil,both having the same amount of wire.

Again, back to another thought, if one coil has 12 turns and a second layer of 12 turns, the other coil has 8 turns on one layer and 16 on the next layer which coil will have more output? Meaning will the layer with 12 turns produce less voltage in combination with the output of the 16 turn layer, resulting in less overall output from the pickup? Is it really about how FAT the coil is or is there a "layer effect" where each layer produces its own voltage; so that alot of layers with few turns would proudce a weaker pickup? Think about it.....

(chuckle)
Your question is remarkably like some I asked here a while back. The short answer is - it depends on everything. I learned that here, lots of folks told me that in no uncertain terms.

Each turn produces a voltage that depends on the speed and amount of the M-field movement through its loop area. Those voltages are all in phase and simply add. If all turns have the same M-field and variation of M-field with signal, the voltages simply add and the one with the most turns wins.

Alas, the M-field varies with distance from the poles, distance from the magnet middle, with pole pieces, with covers, with bottom plates, with strings, with phase of the moon, and everything else. So does the amount the M-field varies with distance from the string and poles.

Each turn sees a different M-field, a different variation in the M-field from string movement, and has a different loop area. So until you can start isolating the effects of magnet size, length, diameter, pole pieces, bottom plates, and so on, you can't come to a good answer. Worse yet, until you can isolate those effects out, you can get contradictory answers.

So the only good way to test is to strip out the confounding variables. Perhaps wind a (shudder!) single coil with no other magnet structure, just the magnets, and two different bobbins that can be slipped on, one with winding case (a) and one with winding case (b), then test them. That tells you the answer about the simple case. Then start adding variables back in, like a magnet structure, then another coil with its variations, etc.

Hmmm... seems like you'd need to test size of response over frequency too, because the different coils do have different frequency responses, as a result of their different winding, but the human ear will hear those varying responses as different loudnesses.

[corduroyew]

From what I can tell (over generalizing here), more winds per layer keeps the winds closer to the magnets which gives you more overall output. I've also notice a tighter more defined bass end. It seems that *lot* of scatter gives slightly lower output, specifically the upper midrange/lower treble, and it seems to give a much more loose sounding bass end.

[madialex]

Hey Possum, heres one that has me re thinking a lot of things.
I read this last night on another forum.

There was a guitarist that was comparing OC Duff's tele PU's to Bill Lawrence's PU's, the USA Bill... He said they were both nice but 1 thing he found was with OC's anything on the volume below 5 the tone was not there and the volume dropped considerably, now I know the volume should drop but the way he put it was kinda like the tone on the BL PU's sounded big and full all the way down to almost 0, the Duff's stopped at 5. I have not really thought about this much but what the heck is going on with that set of PU's? Why is Bill's so strong all the way down the volume scale and the others are not. Mine stay clean and all almost to 0 but lose the punch after about half way as Duff's do. Maybe i'm reading something more into this but still has me wanting to buy a set of Bill's and see what he is doing different?????????

[madialex]

Here is the whole thing Arlo posted. I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him.

Also my apologies to OC Duff, the Pickups in question were Toneriders. Give Andrew credit......


These are mere opinions. Everyone has one like a certain part of the human anatomy. It is NOT an endorsement or advertisement it is an opinion and should be taken as such.

I will use a 1 - 10 scale here where it seems appropriate.

Both the Toneriders and the Keystones are excellent pickups for the money!

Most boutique pickups are in the $150 and up-wards for a set. Both of these are under $80 and that is very attractive. Lets face it a lot of folks don't have unlimited funds to pour into multiple guitars and builds. An investment of $100 can mean a lot in todays economic bleakness.

The worst thing is to spend that kind of getus and find out "eh" you no likey. Your options then are slim. Live with it, return them, throw it in a box or Ebay and all of them sound like a royal pain in the you know what.

PRICE

KEYSTONES = 10
TONERIDERS = 10

You will be hard pressed to find a better deal unless you are a close relative.

The next area of interest is appearance. To a Telecaster user, builder, expert and admirer it is essential that the pickup doesn't remove itself from the vibe and the design to the point it looks questionable or plain screwy.

One pickup that falls into the "Why did you do this to that guitar?" category is the EMG TC and T Telecaster pickups. I have expressed my thoughts openly about them many times. No need to get into it here but as a rating I would say this.

PRICE

EMG TC, T = 8 (pricey)

APPEARANCE

EMG TC, T = 4 (at best)

TONE

EMG TC, T = 10 (serious tone and great noise suppression)

APPEARANCE

TONERIDERS = 10

KEYSTONES = 9.9
(I would like to see a version with the chrome neck and string waxed bridge. These things will certainly drive up the price and I would have no problem paying extra for this. It will be worth every penny. I also want to state that the look of the Keystones is not bad as they are today. I like the fact that Bill and Becky have chosen to retain the traditional look and separate alnico poles. They are nice and pleasing to look at. The only design flaw in that it affects the appearance in my opinion is the string has a tendency to get caught under the pickup cover and will kill a Keystone dead on occasion. This has happened to me on a few occasions. Yet is has not stopped me from returning as a customer. These pickups are trully one of the best in the world for a Telecaster player with rock or country styles.)

The Toneriders trully sound excellent as well. In my opinion they have a more traditional Telecaster sound in most areas and I am sure that the owner and maker Andrew had every intention of keeping the Telecaster sound intact. I bought the "Hot Classics" because I was interested to see if they were as hot and powerful sounding as the Keystones.

This is where the difference between the Keystones became more apparent.

Bill has taken his vast experience and knowledge of winding and pickup wizardry and turned the traditional sound into a diverse and powerful delivery without losing that traditional Telecaster sound. He has added an 11 to the volume control without anyone knowing it.

If one backs off the volume on both the Keystones and the Toneriders the difference is stunning.

The characteristics and dynamics change like a prism of tone. The Keystones are like this all the way down to the 1 position. I am amazed at this achievement as it seems unrealistic that a pickup would retain such dynamics. But the Keystones do.

The Toneriders are equally as dynamic from 5 and above. I didn't get the same results below 5 as I do with the Keystones. Bill has some magic there that I can only understand by hearing it with my own ears. The Toneriders although dynamic did not retain a clarity and punch in the lower volume settings that I am used to hearing in the Keystones. This may be a design issue or a capacitance issue related to my build so in all fairness I may be wrong here and a completely controlled testing would be more appropriate using the same guitar and the same electronics.

Both of these pickup manufacturers know what they are doing. They have taken many variables into consideration when they designed these for sale to the Telecaster user.

To me it is impossible to say one is better than the other. Although it could be true if you only play one style of music. If all you did were traditional country songs then you may find the Toneriders superior. If all you played were traditional country rock or rock songs you may find the Keystones the better choice. But what if you play all of the above and various other styles? In that case you most likely are like me and own several guitars. So it stands to reason that you would own Keystones, Toneriders, Seymour, EMG, Fralin, Fender, Gibson etc etc etc.... I think you get the picture.

I like the country tone of he Toneriders as well as the Keystones very much and I ran both trough the gamut of tone banks in my Flex III XL amp. Some of the settings I used I use all the time in many songs that you folks have heard here in my Twanger posts. I was able to get some very rich and clear tone using them in songs like the following.

Derailers "Little Bit More"
Dirks Bentley "Come a Little Closer"
Brooks and Dunn "Ain't Nothin Bout You"
Johnny Cash "Folsom Prison" and "Ring Of Fire"

Then I switched gears a bit and took them into the 70's rock arena.

Pink Floyd "Comfortably Numb" and "Time"
Robin Trower "Day of the Eagle"
Rolling Stones "Start Me Up"
Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young "Ohio"

Then I went even deeper into the heavy metal styles.

Black Sabbath "Symptom of the Universe" and "Iron Man"
Deep Purple "Smoke on the Water"

TONE

KEYSTONES = 9.9
(I would give them a 10 if they were a little less noisy)

TONERIDERS = 9.8
(I feel that the Keystones had a little more diversity for my style of playing. The Toneriders did seem a bit less noisy but again there are too many variables in my environment to compare that fairly)

Tone is really in the ears of the beholder. One mans trash is another mans treasure. That may not be the best way to express this but how many times have you read reviews and thought I tried them and they were garbage to me? It is important to remember that the player has control of tone at all times. It isn't the amp the pickup the guitar cable bridge saddles etc etc. It is the player that makes the sound because none of these things can without him or her.

[Possum]

mmmmmmm

The difference here may be that Lawrence is winding a tight perfect layer wind, meaning each wind goes down right next to the last one, he is a machine winder and says bad things about hand winders. Andy's pickups are machine wound as well but he is using a researched scatter pattern that is not a perfect layer wind. So to me it is understandable that Bill's would sound the same all the way down and the Toneriders would lack some punch that wouldn't sustain turned down. Its also possible that Andy's pickups don't use alnico 5. I don't know what Bill uses on these. Most likely Bill's are made in Korea in bulk quantities.

What that guy said about boutique pickups is off base and annoying. What do you do if you dont' like the boutique pickups you bought, SELL THEM ON EBAY. I had a customer do that without even telling me he didn't like them, about four years ago, what a jerk, I explained my guarantee to him when he bought them yet he didn't trust me enough to exchange his pickups or have me rewind them to suit him more, sounds like this guy has the same problem. this is bad advertising he is spreading on that forum, what he is saying that if you spend more money on a set of pickups you might get screwed and stuck with something you hate versus these cheap pickups, which most definitley if you don't like you ARE stuck with. I wonder if he has actually bought any hand made pickups himself or just pissy because he can't afford them. If you're posting these Ben you ought to speak up and say that most of us aren't going to stick them with pickups they hate. I have a no refund policy to discourage the wackos who will buy your pickups just to try them out then return them without ever having had the intention of keeping them in the first place, but if someone buys a set from me and tells me they hate them, they hate me etc. I'll surely give them their money back, AFTER I try to give them what they want. Its always a shot in the dark to make sure they are getting something they will enjoy alot. I have a high hit rate with that but there's always one guy who communicates poorly that the first try doesn't work. Anyway had to get that off my chest.

But back to those two cheap pickups, I think the difference he is hearing is perfect layer wind vs. an intentional scatter ratio, and/or possibly magnet differences. In looking quickly at their photos the neck pickups appear to have taller than normal magnets which would also be a big thing to consider. Its possible he may be using heavy build magnet wire as well which with low capacitance would keep the pickup more open sounding as the volume was turned down. In short he is comparing two sets of pickups that probably have nothing in common in the way they are made.....