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  • Who are we to believe about vintage humbuckers

    Below is a short article from Gibson's newsletter that is emailed periodically. The author fails to mention anything about the Leesona 102 and what Seth Lover talks about with Seymour in his interview. My question is, who do we believe, the author and folks at the Gibson factory or Seth Lover in his statments that PAFs were machine wound.

    Gibson Pickups, Part 1: Vintage Humbuckers
    Dave Hunter | 03.20.2008


    As the original home of the hallowed "Patent Applied For" (PAF) humbucker, Gibson has retained a preeminent place in the strata of noise-free tone since the unveiling of that legendary component in 1957. Today Gibson offers a broad range of accurate PAF-style reproductions in order to capture the variation that arose from some inconsistent manufacturing practices of half a century ago, but the diversity can confuse some players as they plunge into the market. Let's take a close look at what separates some of these vintage humbucking pickup models, and in Part 2 we'll examine other pickups available from Gibson today.

    Original PAF pickups of 1956-'62 were wound with the wire guided onto the coils by hand, to "approximately" 5,000 turns of wire per coil, which actually meant-according to reports from workers at the Gibson plant back in the day-simply "until the coils were full." This less-than-precise approach accounts for the wide variation in output strength found among original examples examined today, and genuine PAFs will give DC resistance readings from as low as 7.2k ohms up to as high as 8.8k ohms or so as a result. Higher resistance readings mean more power, but many other factors contribute to the legendary sound of these pickups, and more power doesn't always mean more tone; many players, in fact, are fans of the less powerful, "underwound" PAFs, while others crave the added sizzle that a PAF reading in the mid-8k range offers. Between its three lines of vintage-style reproduction humbuckers-'57 Classics, BurstBuckers, and BurstBucker Pros-Gibson accounts for all tastes in PAF tone.

    Incorporating the '57 Classic and '57 Classic Plus, this set is perfectly calibrated to yield accurate PAF tone in the neck and bridge positions respectively. Each design features Alnico II magnets, vintage enamel coated wire, nickel-plated pole pieces, nickel slugs, maple spacers and vintage-style, two-conductor, braided wiring. In a variation from the majority of original PAFs, however, the '57 Classics' coils are wax potted to combat microphony and feedback squeal at high volumes so, while vintage voiced, they are suited to high-gain playing, too. The number of windings in the two coils are also equally matched, an enhancement that provides a creamy, balanced performance that many players enjoy.

    The '57 Classic is wound to a DC resistance toward the lower range of the original PAF pickups, for a warm, round, rich tone from the neck position with plenty of definition and clarity, or an open, clear, textured vintage voice from the bridge position. The '57 Classic Plus is wound toward the hotter end of the PAF scale in homage to the originals that received extra windings to fill up the bobbins, and it provides an excellent volume balance with the neck unit, and a little extra bite and sizzle from the bridge position, without sacrificing definition and the legendary smooth PAF treble response. Both carry "Patent Applied For" stickers on the bottom plate just like the originals, and are available with gold-plated covers, nickel-plated covers, or open coils.
    As accurate a PAF tone as the '57 Classics provide, the BurstBucker takes things one step further by reproducing some of the inconsistencies that are credited with contributing a certain magic to original Gibson humbuckers from 1957-'62. Available in three output strengths, BurstBuckers are made with unpolished Alnico II magnets and unpotted coils that are wound to slightly different numbers of turns, like the originals. While using two mismatched coils depletes a humbucking pickup's noise-canceling abilities slightly, it also gives the pickup a little more edge-a sound that you could even say comes a little closer to singlecoil bite-than can be achieved with perfectly balanced coils.

    The BurstBucker 1 is slightly underwound to achieve an output toward the lower-medium end of the PAF range, an output that brings it in just slightly below the '57 Classic. It is intended for either position, but offers added clarity mixed with vowel-like tone in the neck position, with the added bonus of good volume balance when paired with a BurstBucker 2 in the bridge position. The 2 has a slightly hotter output in the range of the '57 Classic, for more grind and sustain from the bridge position. Or, pair a BurstBucker 2 in the neck with a BurstBucker 3-the hottest of the trio-in the bridge, for a guitar that offers excellent balance and a vintage voice that is still accurate, but biased toward the hotter end of the PAF scale. All are available with gold-plated or German silver nickel-plated covers.

    Based on the original BurstBuckers and available in two output strengths calibrated to match neck and bridge positions (with outputs akin to those of the BurstBucker 1 and 2), the BurstBucker Pros employ Alnico V magnets for a little extra sting and punch, and feature wax-potted coils to combat potential squeal and microphony. Like the BurstBucker's they use two coils with unmatched windings to retain a little extra sonic edge in their "enhanced vintage" performance. They are available with gold-plated or German silver nickel-plated covers.

    Tune in to Part 2 for a look at other pickups in the Gibson range, and check out this handy Pickup Guide for further information and comparison charts that provide a visual guide to the differences between units.
    www.guitarforcepickups.com

  • #2
    Probably because duncan uses the leesona now , whereas gibson don't?? to be honest I don't take any notice of what anyone says about their pickups..I would rather concentrate on my own,

    Mick

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    • #3
      The only answer is to study lots of original PAFs yourself. Do scientific tests and don't listen to people's opinions no matter how forceful their argument.

      Then try and replicate your findings and brace yourself because there will always be someone waiting in the wings to say your pickups are shit.
      sigpic Dyed in the wool

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by kevinT View Post
        Below is a short article from Gibson's newsletter that is emailed periodically. The author fails to mention anything about the Leesona 102 and what Seth Lover talks about with Seymour in his interview. My question is, who do we believe, the author and folks at the Gibson factory or Seth Lover in his statments that PAFs were machine wound.

        Gibson Pickups, Part 1: Vintage Humbuckers
        Dave Hunter | 03.20.2008


        As the original home of the hallowed "Patent Applied For" (PAF) humbucker, Gibson has retained a preeminent place in the strata of noise-free tone since the unveiling of that legendary component in 1957.
        Exactly how many PAF's were wound in Nashville?

        Original PAF pickups of 1956-'62 were wound with the wire guided onto the coils by hand.

        Total BS

        The problem with facts concerning PAF's is deciding how much to share. My facts say that absolutely zero production PAF's were hand wound, and I'm not alone in this. Your facts may vary of course.

        But the short answer is believe ME!
        They don't make them like they used to... We do.
        www.throbak.com
        Vintage PAF Pickups Website

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Spence View Post
          The only answer is to study lots of original PAFs yourself. Do scientific tests and don't listen to people's opinions no matter how forceful their argument.

          Then try and replicate your findings and brace yourself because there will always be someone waiting in the wings to say your pickups are shit.
          Nice if you can get hold of a few dozen examples of so called golden era pafs to test but the reality is a bit more sobering unless you have a fortune to burn buying up different era paf's, your only real choice is to listen to whats said in forums like this, and keep winding till you get the sound you want.

          Jez

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          • #6
            Originally posted by jez View Post
            Nice if you can get hold of a few dozen examples of so called golden era pafs to test but the reality is a bit more sobering unless you have a fortune to burn buying up different era paf's, your only real choice is to listen to whats said in forums like this, and keep winding till you get the sound you want.

            Jez
            But Jon will tell you that unless you have a Leesona 102 you'll never succeed. So perhaps you should stop trying.
            Failing that, ignore everything Jon says and keep at it.
            sigpic Dyed in the wool

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            • #7
              We've had this discussion about what constitutes "hand wound", and there is considerable variation in personal and individual definitions of "hand wound". Though my experience with Hunter's books leads me to be occasionally skeptical about his attention to details, what he says in the newsletter simply indicates that there was some manual intervention with respect to guiding the wire. Nothing in what he says indicates that the winding itself was not automated, and how much hand-guiding there was is open to speculation. It is also possible for hand-guiding to be more and less strategic. I can start a bobbin turning automatically, and pinch the wire between my thumb and index finger just to make sure that it doesn't accidentally start winding outside the bobbin, OR I can pinch the wire and direct it to be distributed within the bobbin a certain way. Both count as "hand-guided".

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Spence View Post
                But Jon will tell you that unless you have a Leesona 102 you'll never succeed. So perhaps you should stop trying.
                Failing that, ignore everything Jon says and keep at it.
                Not exactly. My feeling is that there is a framework for a PAF. It consists of the components, wire and winding pattern. Within that framework is where a maker can build their own PAF recipe. If PAF's were machine wound then I think that needs to be part of the framework for a PAF. Ideally you would have the actually model of machine that wound PAF's simply because the tolerances of the machine effect the winding pattern. But having a computerized winding system will certainly get you closer to a PAF winding pattern than you could ever hope to by hand. If you have a computerized winder you can at least experiment with tolerances even if you don't know the tolerances of the original machine. But even with a computerized unwind there are some PAF winding patterns that collapse on themselves and can't really be read by an unwind. But if you have the vintage winding machine you can duplicate it. You can even profile the vintage machine itself and program it into your computerized winder to make experimentation easier.

                You could just ignore all of this though. It won't hurt my feelings.
                Last edited by JGundry; 03-27-2008, 05:57 PM.
                They don't make them like they used to... We do.
                www.throbak.com
                Vintage PAF Pickups Website

                Comment


                • #9
                  The part that matters in the end is how do your pickups sound? If they aren't quite exactly the same as a PAF, if they sound good, so what? Some of the PAFs didn't sound all that great either. It is a useful skill to be able to wind many different ways and using many different techniques however, so I say learn all of the ways and have them as a tool at your disposal when needed to achieve whatever sounds you're looking for.

                  Greg

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by soundmasterg View Post
                    The part that matters in the end is how do your pickups sound? Greg
                    Agree 100%.

                    Any custom PU maker should want to know "exactly" what type of sound you as a player are looking for before he does the wind. If you want the warmer PAF he will wind it that way, the hotter PAF same thing. Your custom maker will hopefully have had years of experience de-constructing PAF's and knows what wind gives what sound.

                    Then you have to ask yourself..... will it sound like that 58 paul you heard or played once? Sorry but probably not. Too many factors to consider. Did that 58 sound great due to way the wire "aged" over the years from sweat, bar smoke, beer spills or any number of things. Was the 58 made on a Friday or a Monday? Is it due to the wood? Did the tone caps drift value just enough to make a difference? I mean were talking about 40 to 50 year old guitars here.

                    We have no way to know what a "new" 58 sounded like. Unless you're old enough to have actually played a new one and your memory is still very sharp, it's just a guess. We only know what they sound like now (if lucky) or on old recordings (which can't be trusted due to studio manipulation).

                    Gibson and Fender would like you to believe that their re-issue vintage stuff is the same as is was "back then". I myself don't think so. Those guitars are great instruments but in reality won't be the same till they have 40 or 50 years of blood, sweat and tears pounded into them.

                    If you like the sound of whatever PU you end up with, then by all means play the hell out of it for years. In 50 years some guy will be saying.....

                    How does that guitar get that sound!

                    Just my .02
                    Excuse me, what are you doing way up there on the 15th fret? Get back down low where you belong.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      aging ....

                      Don't forget that those hallowed Les Pauls were only TEN YEARS OLD when all those historic recordings were made with that classic PAF tone. Ten years is nothing. Now those pickups are hitting almost 50 years old, now that is starting to show age differences. What tickles me to death is these really rich guys are buying these pickups at insane prices, they are almost $10,000 a pair now, and they are buying something that has a high likelihood of FAILING in the near future. BAD INVESTMENT guys :-) Once you have rewound your $5,000 pickup try selling it for that much.....you can't, no matter who rewinds it. If I had a stash of old PAFs I'd keep a few for research and sit on the rest maybe for another year or two then unload them all but you start to see them all start to fail.
                      http://www.SDpickups.com
                      Stephens Design Pickups

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Before reading any Gibson ad copy, you should get your hip-waders on and buy a couple cans of Glade.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ...

                          Same for Fender, I wonder if they still advertsie Texas Specials as being what Stevie Ray played.....
                          http://www.SDpickups.com
                          Stephens Design Pickups

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            While you pickup gurus are all in one place fighting over PAFs, does anyone know anything about the humbuckers PRS put in their McCarty model? I always supposed they were meant to be PAF clones in one way or another.

                            steve
                            "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Possum View Post
                              What tickles me to death is these really rich guys are buying these pickups at insane prices, they are almost $10,000 a pair now, and they are buying something that has a high likelihood of FAILING in the near future. BAD INVESTMENT guys :-) Once you have rewound your $5,000 pickup try selling it for that much.....you can't, no matter who rewinds it. If I had a stash of old PAFs I'd keep a few for research and sit on the rest maybe for another year or two then unload them all but you start to see them all start to fail.
                              Yep, the price for vintage parts, especially pickups and electronics are through the roof. Guitars are being parted out at a rate I've never seen before because their sum is worth less than the parts. I've been around in both retail and stage work for over 40 years and I can't help but laugh at the prices some people will pay for parts.

                              I was in retail during the late 60's early 70's and a new guitar from either Fender or Gibson was almost a piece of crap. It required a great deal of time on the dealer end to get the guitars playable where we could even sell them. Now they sell for big bucks everywhere. A 70's tilt neck / bullet truss Strat or a log neck Les Paul is what it is whether it's over 30 years old or not. CBS and Norlin can thank themselves for creating the "vintage" market we have today by putting quantity over quality.

                              Hand or machine wound PU's? Does it really matter if someone who is not a player but rather a corporate guy with a clipboard is standing over your shoulder while you work telling you to "step it up". I toured Fender in the late 60's and saw this first hand.

                              Any pickup whether new or vintage will only be as good as the person winding it and the speed, skill and experience of that person. Hey even if it's machine wound, somebody still has to set up the machine and run it.
                              Excuse me, what are you doing way up there on the 15th fret? Get back down low where you belong.

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