Overbright HB's

[ken]

Hello...

I'm curious,

I'm experimenting with winding some HB's, and I see that some of the completed
pickups are brighter than others. I am trying to wind every one of these coils exactly the same, same tension, number of turns, etc. Still, some are still brighter than others. Does anyone know for example what effect winding tension may have on finished coils?

Thank you,
Ken

[Joe Gwinn]

I'm experimenting with winding some HB's, and I see that some of the completed pickups are brighter than others. I am trying to wind every one of these coils exactly the same, same tension, number of turns, etc. Still, some are still brighter than others. Does anyone know for example what effect winding tension may have on finished coils?

It would be useful to know the Inductance and AC resistance at 1 KHz, and the DC resistance.

Joe Gwinn

[mick]

Ken
Have you tried using the same mag for each pickup ? I put some A2 in some 59's of mine , it made them sound very bright and thin ,
Mick

[Spence]

You need to be absolutely certain that you have set each pickup up exactly the same.
I find that the pickup pole to string height is critical and differs vastly within a couple of mm. So the treble bias may be just down to these variables rather than anything more dramatic.

[ken]

Hello all,

I made each of these tests exactly the same as the others...

I wound every bobbin with 5000 turns of 42 gauge PE, and used all new pickup parts from the same vendor for each pickup. I also used new Al2 magnets for each pickup. I dropped my Extech meter so I have to get it fixed (klutz), but my Fluke bench meter says each coil is 4KDCR within +- .2K too. Each coil is wound and wired like a PAF with 2 conductor braided wire. I remembered the threads in the other group about tape, so some of these have no wrapping tape while others have been taped. All the screws are flush with the top of the bobbins, and none of these pickups are potted.

But... I have one that is loud but is bright with no grind at all, one bright and grindy, and a couple of others are louder, but still not 'happening'. I did wind some of these somewhat tighter than others, but I'm not really sure if this would make that much of a difference.

Thank you,
Ken

[NightWinder]

Is the coils wound tighter drastically shaped smaller that the other looser wound(should be)? Did you scatter real wide, or close (replicating a machine wound, which again would be a slightly smaller coil shape) wind?
I'm oldschool...Coil shape is really important. I think you may have to explain the brightness.....and coilshape.............

[ken]

I took all the pickups apart for 'autopsy'...

The brighter coils were all smaller coil diameter after winding, possibly from tighter coil winding. I wound these 'sloppy', not trying to emulate a machine wound coil.

All I can come up with is that it is possible to wind a coil too tightly, then the wire 'packs in' and the coil gets too small. Too small of a coil = too bright.

When my Extech comes back, I will do ACR and inductance measurements on them. I have each coil numbered now so I can 'graph' each one.

Ken

[Spence]

How long have you been making humbuckers?
I think I know what you've done but I wouldn't want to offend you by suggesting you've made a 'newbie' error. I'd just like to help.

[ken]

You can go ahead and speak your piece, you would have to try very hard indeed to offend me.

Yes, I made a 'newbie' error I bet... I'm not proud, or ego trippin', and I want to know, what did I do wrong?

I've only been experimenting with HB's for a little while, my single coils are what I 'do' but I wanted to see what all the fuss is about with the HB's.

No, I didn't get the phase wrong, that was the very first thing I checked.
No, I didn't use extremely tall and skinny bobbins either.

Ken

[Spence]

So you've wound both bobbins in the same direction?
You've definately used the same magnets grades?
You haven't mounted one bobbin upside down when winding?
There are no mysteries...it's all explainable.

[ken]

No I haven't done any of those things either, if I did I would have noticed it. All the coils are wound same direction, both the 'inside' coil wires are soldered together and taped, my bobbins I used do have a specific 'top' and 'bottom' to them that don't look the same, and there is only one Al2 magnet magnetized for width not length so there is no magnetic/electrical phasing issues. I even took a couple of these coils apart so all that is left is a coil and a plastic bobbin, and weighed them on a gram balance scale, cos I was thinking maybe my digital counter had a 'senior moment' and was counting too fast (more than once per revolution) or something.

I'm hoping to find out what this is when I get my meter back, this is driving me nuts. I lost sleep over this one last night, no lie.

About coil shape...

/snip
Is the coils wound tighter drastically shaped smaller that the other looser wound(should be)? Did you scatter real wide, or close (replicating a machine wound, which again would be a slightly smaller coil shape) wind?
I'm oldschool...Coil shape is really important. I think you may have to explain the brightness.....and coilshape.............

Could you please explain 'coil shape'. and would this effect be any different on a HB from a singlecoil because of the relatively very short bobbin height of the HB? My coils may be relatively small in size, but I tried to wind these with a medium to wide scatter but still end up with a neat squared off looking coil with no 'lumps'.

Thank you for the ideas,
Ken

[Spence]

So your bobbins are all the same make and construction? All the same height and pole spacing?
When you say you solder the inners together are you meaning the starts of each wind or the ends?

[madialex]

C'mon guys help the guy out for goodness sakes.

I mean out of all the replies not one even eludes to a solution or answer. Why is this?

Tension does have a bit of factor on the tone as well as output, as well as coil shape.

Dont let the small size of a humbucker coil make you think it wont make a big difference as far as coil shape is concerned. I have found that it actually makes more of a difference on the small bobbins versus say a strat or tele bobbin IMHO.

Tension, coil shape between bobbins, tension differences between bobbins all make a difference as well as scatter. Maybe someone who wants to give an answer can chime in.

[ken]

Hello all...

The start of each coil is the 'inner' wind, so the start wires of each coil are soldered together, the finish wire of the slug coil is soldered to the baseplate and the coax wire's shield braid too since I'm using braided coaxial wire, and the finish wire of the screw coil is soldered to the center 'hot' conductor. This makes much more sense to me than some pups I've seen with the finish of the slug coil as 'hot'.

Yes, the bobbins are all the same too, same spacing and all.

I'm sharing this because I do love a good puzzle but I was wondering if any of you have seen this sort of thing before.

My local distributor is going to let me 'borrow' another Extech this weekend so I can try to solve this.

Thank you,
Ken

[Spence]

What the.....?

I find that a bit rich suggesting that no one is trying to give the guy a definitive answer. The main problem is that we can't see these humbuckers or test them or even listen to them. Therefore the most we can do really is suggest possible causes.

I've made a lot of humbuckers in my time and continue to do so and early on I made some idiot mistakes with some of them.

I've been trying to go through a checklist with Ken. Now as he ticks them off as negatives, it narrows down what went wrong. Remember, he hasn't got a meter, no mention of a gaussmeter either.

Perhaps someone would like to suggest how else we should get to the bottom of this before dishing out criticism.