3-Simple Letters-IMO

[big_teee]

Let's have more open discussions.
Not theory but IMO on winding techniques.
For example.
IMO I think, using hard material between the bobbin and the traditional base plate makes the pickup brighter.
What is your opinion.
There will be no hard right or wrong in this Thread!
If you have an Opinion, on a winding technique, that you think causes something, lets discuss it.
Let's have fun!
Thanks,
Terry

[JoeM]

IMO your just opening a big can of worms. Seems like you're reacting to something that took place in another thread. So any opinion, even if all scientific facts prove it wrong are going to be OK? What good does that do?

[big_teee]

The point is, IMO not everything with winding is always scientific.
We can agree to disagree peacefully.
I've seen several things, in the past that would fit this category.
Like the possum 6 month breakin.
I personally don't think it happens, but he sure does, and I don't mind him having that opinion.
We can discuss it here if he wants to.
Don't see any harm in leaving this open.
Surely we can all have an open mind about things.
That was the point of the thread, just to have a thread for this sort of thing.
No Malice intended!
Thanks,
T

[big_teee]

Here's another one that fits this category.
Bear with me!
IMO with a Bridge P/U when you Put more wire on the Slug bobbin, it makes the Pickup Darker.
IMO when you put more turns on the Screw bobbin it makes it brighter.
IMO the Reason is the most turns in relationship to the distance to the bridge.
Other opinions are that anytime you mismatch the amount of turns it makes the P/U brighter.
Because of the less effect of hum canceling, and higher freq. pass.
That has not been my experience.
I encourage you to try winding each bobbin differently, and see what you get.
So if anyone else has an Opinion with this, feel free to jump in and we will discuss it!
We all welcome the discussion!
T

[rjb]

IMO, It seems what you're really advocating is a new section named something like "Mad Scientists' Laboratory" or "Speculators' Lounge" or or maybe "Fact-Free Zone."

There, you can say "I did this, and observed this phenomenon, and believe it's caused by the color of the insulation" and someone can reply "IMO, you're nuts- it's caused by eddy currents" and someone else can say "I tried it too and got totally different results".

But you don't need a separate section for this kind of discussion- it already goes on in the regular Pickup Makers section.

IMO, members should strive to self-police to keep their speculative theories *out* of the Beginner's Corner- where they may be taken as gospel by impressionable initiates. The Beginner's Corner should be the place to find simple, basic factual advice & information, to show off your first build or repair, and so on.

IMO, that is.
-rb

[big_teee]

IMO, It seems what you're really advocating is a new section named something like "Mad Scientists' Laboratory" or "Speculators' Den" or or maybe "Fact-Free Zone."

There, you can say "I did this, and observed this phenomenon, and believe it's caused by the color of the insulation" and someone can reply "IMO, you're nuts- it's caused by eddy currents" and someone else can say "I tried it too and got totally different results".

But you don't need a separate section for this kind of discussion- it already goes on in the regular Pickup Makers section.

IMO, members should strive to self-police to keep their speculative theories *out* of the Beginner's Corner- where they may be taken as gospel by impressionable initiates. The Beginner's Corner should be the place to find simple, basic factual advice & information, to show off your first build or repair, and so on.

IMO, that is.
-rb

I respect your opinion.
My bad.
Not a new section, just this thread!
If we were all scientist or professional engineers, and had a whole lab full of test equipment?
Then maybe there would be no room for Opinions.
I wind a pickup and then I mount it and play it.
So maybe that is why we come up with our opinions.
If you come up with an idea that you think is neat, why not share it.
Put on here, this is not gospel, but if you want to, try it.
I have 3 other guys that I email.
We swap ideas all the time, most of them would get ridiculed on the forum.
I think that sure limits a lot of creativity.
Individual problems always get addressed.
As far as beginners learning.
Did anyone or anything ever keep you from learning something , if you wanted to learn bad enough?
Thanks for your input!
T

[rjb]

Not a new section, just this thread!

Oh, that's different...never mind....

-rb

[Steve Conner]

3 simple letters -WTF

IMO with a Bridge P/U when you Put more wire on the Slug bobbin, it makes the Pickup Darker.
IMO when you put more turns on the Screw bobbin it makes it brighter.
IMO the Reason is the most turns in relationship to the distance to the bridge.

An easily testable hypothesis (and FWIW- I agree with it ) Just turn the pickup around in the guitar. If Big Tee is correct, the tone will change, because the bobbins have swapped places with respect to the bridge.

[David Schwab]

IMO I think, using hard material between the bobbin and the traditional base plate makes the pickup brighter.
What is your opinion.

OK, then please answer the following questions;

Explain why that would work?

Also, which is harder, plastic or wood?

How do you know answer? How many different materials have you tired?

How do you define "hard"? Density or ability to crush or deform the material?

And, what was your testing setup? You realize you can pull out the spacers and retest the pickup, right?

Did you make recorded examples of each test? If not, than how do you really know it sounded different?

Opinions are fine, but has to be based on reasoning. You have to ask the questions I just asked you to try and come up with a reason for the results.

[David Schwab]

The point is, IMO not everything with winding is always scientific.
We can agree to disagree peacefully.
I've seen several things, in the past that would fit this category.
Like the possum 6 month breakin.
I personally don't think it happens, but he sure does, and I don't mind him having that opinion.
We can discuss it here if he wants to.
Don't see any harm in leaving this open.
Surely we can all have an open mind about things.
That was the point of the thread, just to have a thread for this sort of thing.
No Malice intended!
Thanks,
T

Since you are asking, I'll give my option on each of these posts separately.

You don't have to agree with something. But you cannot state it as fact unless you can back it up, or give evidence that it works.

Possum was not able to do that, and didn't want to even try and test it. Plus, if his pickups sounded different in six months from the time he wound them, and if he was saying they didn't sound good when new, why would he wind and sell them that way? Who does that? Do you wind up a pickup, decide it doesn't sound good, and then tell the customer it will sound better in six months? He was also unable to explain, or even try to explain why that would happen. He also stated it only happens with his hand made parts, and not the parts you can buy from Stew mac, or any parts made in Asia.

Do you REALLY believe any of that?

Do your pickups sound different six months later?

[Stratz]

IMO, Poly and PE of the same dimensions sound quite different.
IMO, Poly sounds like crap compared to PE

I've been dying to say that

I like this thread

[David Schwab]

Here's another one that fits this category.
Bear with me!
IMO with a Bridge P/U when you Put more wire on the Slug bobbin, it makes the Pickup Darker.
IMO when you put more turns on the Screw bobbin it makes it brighter.
IMO the Reason is the most turns in relationship to the distance to the bridge.
Other opinions are that anytime you mismatch the amount of turns it makes the P/U brighter.
Because of the less effect of hum canceling, and higher freq. pass.
That has not been my experience.
I encourage you to try winding each bobbin differently, and see what you get.
So if anyone else has an Opinion with this, feel free to jump in and we will discuss it!
We all welcome the discussion!
T

OK, the slug bobbin is not only farther from the bridge in the bridge pickup, but also tends to be louder. It also has a slightly different tone because the slugs are larger in diameter than the screws. So, without having tested it, I would guess the inductance is higher in the slug bobbin than the screw bobbin. So you have two things going on there.

Now try this; make up a humbucker with either two screw or two slug bobbins. How does it sound? Two screw bobbins sounds brighter to me. Now try winding different amounts of wire on each coil. Because the cores are matched you will hear the difference. You will also hear how your wiring pattern sounds.

The important thing to remember in any kind of design endeavor, is; change one parameter at a time. Often winders starting out wind a pickup, don't like it, and then decide to change 3 or 4 different aspects of the pickup. They might change the number of turns, the magnet, and the offset between coils. Now if you hear something different, you don't know what caused it. Was it one of those things, or the combination?

I mostly wind pickups with both bobbins being the same size, and having the same core, i.e., they will have two blades of the same shape and size. No screws or slugs. Now any changes I make in winding between the two bobbins is easy to hear. I find that I can vary the amount of turns by quite a large amount and not really hear a huge difference. past a certain point they get more single coil sounding. Then I can change the core size in one coils and hear the different. Or I can mix wire gauges. Now you can tune the pickup to get different tones.

IMO, the Gibson humbucker platform is antiquated and restricting. You can make better sounding pickups if you break from that mold. "Better sounding" is an opinion based on what I like to hear.
Seth Lovers opinion was he didn't need or want adjustable poles. It was the opinion of the marketing department that they wanted what Fender didn't have, i.e., adjustable poles. See how opinions work?

What isn't an opinion is saying that painting your guitar red will make it louder. Or that gray flatwork sounds different from black.

Things that are not option; offsetting the winds on the pickup makes it brighter. This is used by several pickup makers to make brighter pickups. Gibson said it adds edge, and Bartolini offsets them by 1,000 turns to make brighter pickups. There is science behind why it works. It's also the reason why single coils are brighter than humbuckers. If you think about that a minute, it's easy to see.

Now the thing I am against is stating opinion as fact, and doing it in the beginners corner where people don't know any better. Recently I was listening to recording engineer David Pensado. He said when he started out he read some engineer said the first thing he does is cut 300Hz from the bass drum. Every time. So Pensado started doing that without thinking about it. He said he ruined more bass drum recordings because he didn't stop and question that, and use his own ears.

So if you tell a beginner they need to use wooden spacers, they will. In this case it won't make any difference at all, but you got their head filled with what is IMO misinformation. What works for you is based on your skill level. You couldn't get quack from your dual rail single coils, and I was trying to help you to explain what you were doing wrong (wrong as far as wanting quack), but you just got defensive and didn't listen. The lack of quack was because of the lack of high end. You either wound them too hot, or you need to change your winding pattern. That's not option, that's a fact based on my experience winding them. I posted sound clips to establish that it was not opinion.

So honestly, and IMO, I don't see where opinion fits into pickup making, unless it's about your taste in what sounds good. What beginners wants is facts they can use. That's why I got on your case about those posts. What you like and what is fact are two different things. I think humbuckers should be bright, but that's my opinion.

[big_teee]

No Argument, no debate, I stated my opinion.
Everyone is welcome to state their opinion.
If you disagree with the opinion, then you are welcome to state Your own.
That is how this thread works.
The purpose of this thread is not to necessarily prove, or disprove anything, but to give Ideas for others to try.
To state your ideas without any repercussions.
When everyone is afraid of ridicule of the statement or idea, very little gets shared.
This thread is strictly for the sharing of those ideas not for disproving anything.
Enough of that goes on in the Main Pickup Area.
T

[copperheadroads]

IMO, Poly and PE of the same dimensions sound quite different.
IMO, Poly sounds like crap compared to PE

I've been dying to say that

I like this thread

IMO
If you can buy Poly wire with the same OD & the same bare wire diameter & same thickness of the insulation as a good size PE ,It will have & little different tone & probably closer ,tonewise to PE wire
Most of the Poly has a little thicker insulation & thats why some winders has it specially made ,I'd like to try Mr Candy's poly but it's $$$

[copperheadroads]

Possum was not able to do that, and didn't want to even try and test it. PLus, if his pickups sounded different tin six months from the time he wound them, and if he was saying they didn't sound good when new,

This has happened quite a bit here lately ,just finished winding & assemble a few buckers & p-90's unpotted (more noticeable in hotter winds & hotter magnets A5,A8's than vintage) ,& try it & the tone is really harsh kind of scooped
& after playing it for a while & a couple of hours pass to even a couple of days ,you notice the tone smoothe out & it's not so harsh
IMO something happens ..I Have not made any clips ,& I'm not that curious & just too busy to do so .........Six months...... That would be tough to prove