Confused about winding...

[Justwannano]

What happened is I was reading at Stu-Mac about winding and there is a chart
for winding.
It has:
Start-Black ground
Finish-White hot

Lollar pickup blog has:
We build all of our strats so that the colored cloth lead (either yellow or white) is hot, and the black is ground. As you can see the coil wire travels from the hot (yellow) lead – around the coil in a counter-clockwise path – and then out to ground.

So I'm thinking....one is right and one is wrong...or...both are right and it doesn't matter as long as I think like either everytime.

Please let me know if my reading comprehension skills need work.
If not...then please let me know which is the "start" and "finish" and which is hot or ground please.

[big_teee]

Hi:
This is one of those, no really wrong answer.
You will find every configuration with different brands, and fender did them different, different years.
Here is how I do it, sometimes.
I wind the Neck, and bridge, CW North up.
I wind the middle CCW South up.
I have made them opposite of that before.
I do ground the start black lead.
I feed the neck and bridge with white wire, and middle with Yellow.
Tele P/Us I wind Bridge CCW North up.
Neck CW South up.
Tele Bridge Yellow and black, and neck white and black.
T

[Justwannano]

Terry, first...thank you.

I understand the polarity and winding direction aspects, I think.

What I pointed out is that I can't tell if the start wire is hot or ground. As I found; Stu says start is ground- Lollar says start is hot.
If I understand you correctly- neither is wrong so both are right.

At this point all I really understand is why I'm confused.


I also realize that you address them as in the '50's.
I am currently trying to wind my first set for a Strat with the neck and bridge S CW and the middle N CCW.
I also thought that starting was ground and also going with "standard" color with middle having yellow hot, black ground.

Now am I to believe that I can reverse all connections and make all starts hot and all finish grounds?

[SonnyW]

I think that post in the Lollar blog was mainly addressing questions about lefty strat pickups. The point of it was that it doesn't matter whether the pickup is installed in a right handed pickguard or turned around in a lefty pickguard, the winding direction and phasing will be the same. You kind of have to read into it about whether the hot is on the inside or the outside of the coil it doesn't really say exactly. Regardless of that, here are the important points to consider.

Traditionally on strats, the black is the start and it is ground.
The white or yellow is the finish and it is hot.
One reason for doing it this way, the strats have a string ground, so the start is ground in case there is a short to the magnets. That way the magnets will be grounded not hot if that happens.
Just my 2 cents.

[Justwannano]

Thank you Sonny. Start is ground and with good reason.

[big_teee]

Thank you Sonny. Start is ground and with good reason.

You got it right.
However if you wind all three pickups the same direction?
You can feed the start on the middle one with rev magnet polarity.
If you do that, just make sure you tape the magnets good, on the middle P/U, so you have no shorted magnets.
T

[Justwannano]

T- that's great to know.
My plan was to have the neck and bridge S CW-middle N CCW.
Being set on that I haven't really spent time considering many other alternatives.

Now that I have everything ready and rewound enough to know I can at least
complete what I start...just want to get this first major step right.
Already had one set-back. While starting off winding on the first bobbin I assembled
for some unknown reason the wire on the only spool of 42 I had had like a few layers
of wire just slide down the spool and tangle...complete loss of brand new spool.
Factory defect is all I can come up with. So ordered another one and plan on getting
a couple of Strat sets done....and ran into the confusion while being on hold.

Appreciate you guys helping me and thank you for it.

Michael

oh...I'm taking other advice that's been given- I'm dipping the bobbins in lacquer and taping
the magnets.
The first dipping didn't go very well. I didn't wipe them before hanging to dry and got blobs
of lacquer that I had to trim off. learn be doing.

[RedHouse]

...Start is ground and with good reason....

Well, yes and no really.

If start=ground, then if you get a short in the coil (wire on bare magnets) then the pickup will likely still work though slightly diffrerent tone. This is the way Leo decided to do it.

If start=hot then the pickup is self-shielding, meaning the ending winds being closer to ground and covering the outside of the coil, those ending winds act like a pickup shielded helping shield hum/buzz/EMI noise. This is way I prefer to do mine, it's much easier than adding shielding inside the pickup covers. The only "catch" is that if you sell individual pickups you'll run into phasing problems with other makers pickups. Of course the way around this is to use alternative colors for your leads (ie; not Black/White or Black/Yellow) if you use something like Yellow/White and include instructions on how to wire them to correct phase, you're good.
(but not "vintage")

IMHO, the notion of performance (ie; self-shielding) out-weighs vintage'ness, because often vintage construction was not the best way, just the way they decided to do it for their own reasons.

The downside of start=hot is when you do grounded pole builds. You then add too much capacitance if the wire is wrapped directly on the magnets (ie; vintage winding style)

Obvioulsy the cure is to wrap the magnets before winding.
(which is always a good idea anyway)

[big_teee]

Well, yes and no really.

If start=ground, then if you get a short in the coil (wire on bare magnets) then the pickup will likely still work though slightly diffrerent tone. This is the way Leo decided to do it.

If start=hot then the pickup is self-shielding, meaning the ending winds being closer to ground and covering the outside of the coil, those ending winds act like a pickup shielded helping shield hum/buzz/EMI noise. This is way I prefer to do mine, it's much easier than adding shielding inside the pickup covers. The only "catch" is that if you sell individual pickups you'll run into phasing problems with other makers pickups. Of course the way around this is to use alternative colors for your leads (ie; not Black/White or Black/Yellow) if you use something like Yellow/White and include instructions on how to wire them to correct phase, you're good.
(but not "vintage")

IMHO, the notion of performance (ie; self-shielding) out-weighs vintage'ness, because often vintage construction was not the best way, just the way they decided to do it for their own reasons.

The downside of start=hot is when you do grounded pole builds. You then add too much capacitance if the wire is wrapped directly on the magnets (ie; vintage winding style)

Obvioulsy the cure is to wrap the magnets before winding.
(which is always a good idea anyway)

You can hear that shielding effect, if you wire the bare pickup to a jack.
I always temp wire to a jack and wave it around in front of the amp checking for microphonics.
All you have to do with a strat pickup is temp it one way, then connect it the other for comparison.
With the start grounded you pick up more noise when you touch the pickup.
Another thing that IMO really helps with pick guards, is a full foil shielding on the bottom.
I always strip the pickguard and contact glue a heavy piece of Aluminum foil to it.
I then mount all the grounded components on the foil.
It does cut down on some of the noise, but keep in mind they are still Single Coils.
And SCs pick up 60 hz hum.
Good Luck,
B_T

[RedHouse]

...Another thing that IMO really helps with pick guards, is a full foil shielding on the bottom.
I always strip the pickguard and contact glue a heavy piece of Aluminum foil to it...

Absoulutely, and it also gets rid of that weird scratchy/static noise pickguards can contribute.

Speaking of pickguard noise (or more correctly, "scratchplate" noise), on my own Strat's I even go so far as to add a thin strip of silcone under the pickguard, on top of the foil just south of the area in between the middle and bridge pickup. This stops the "slapping" noise that can occur when a player hits his picking hand fingers down ojnto the scratchplate as he plays (which I seem to do) and creates an audible thumping sound.

I do this by laying down two strips of blue masking tape with 1 or 2 layers thick, about 1/4" apart, and about 1" long. Then put a dab of silcone about the size of a BB onto the area between the two strips of tape, then with a flat-thing (ie; Razor blade handle) I just smear the silone from one end to the other of the length of tape, this creates a very thin strip of silicone about the thickness of the 1 or 2 layers of tape. Wait 20 minutes and revove the tape, then wait overnight for the silicone to cure.

Now the backside has a nice little silcone "buffer" that silences the knocking/slapping noise created when the scratchplate/pickguard is thumped during playing.

[Justwannano]

Thank you Brad. I sure appreciate all of the efforts and information.

So I finished from start to finish-my first single coil.
Grey bottom, alnico 5, 7360 winds of 42AWG plain, CW, S.up, 5.9k (best I could tell-digital meter ordered) - lacquered, Kaptan taped, potted and coil wrapped w/tape. (for bridge placement) - The magnatizing sure didn't seem to be an issue. I followed Stu-Mac instructions and the meter read it as it reads factory pups.

I won't get to hear it as it was sent to England.
I wound another as much the same as I could and not potted it read exactly the same...I'll get to hear it when completed.

And now I know...these were start= ground (vintage style).
I will be winding a Strat set with start = hot ( self-shielding)

Question now....wh

Very weird....above is a post that I tried to post this morning and when I hit to post I got sent to log in screen- not the first time
since I've been here.
Below is what I was posting as a second attempt and instead of it showing - the above showed up.- strangest forum action I've ever seen.

Thank you Brad.
Even with the noise cancelling advantage of start=hot with three pups would one still want
to RW RP for the middle pup?

The static issue I have had on a Tele but not on a Strat- the silicone pad is a great tip.
I prefer to paint (conductive paint) the cavities and I also foil the back of guards that don't have it.
Copper foil lining cavities are just a hassle to me.

Thanks to the info/help I've received I finished my first pup from start to finish.

I used grey bottom (mojotone) Alnico 5, lacquered and Kaptan tape, 7360 CW S.up, 42 AWG plain, looked like 5.9k (ordered a digital meter) potted and wrapped
the coil, cloth wire - start=ground.
Wound another as close to same as I could- haven't potted yet but got exact same reading.
The finished one ( I'm so proud of) is being shipped to England today so I'll hear only from the owner. Hope it's the bridge pup he wanted. ( friend/gift)

So I mentioned your time wasn't wasted and appreciated...you helped me get started with very fun and rewarding hobby. My thanks to you.
Michael.

[SonnyW]

Well, yes and no really.

Brad, When I posted that, I started to mention the other side of the coin, about the self shielding if the start is hot. I even typed it in, then deleted it because I figured it would be better just to stick to the point. I seldom stick to the point very much anyhow.

Speaking of not sticking to the point, I have many times used the copper foil tape and completely shielded the cavity on the strats and it helps. But it is a pain, and the copper tape is expensive, and some players have a problem that the copper turns green and they say it oozes a greenish goo out the edge of the pickguard from their sweat. The other day I was in the Home Depot and bought several rolls of the aluminum foil 2 inch wide tape they sell for air conditioning ductwork. The tape was for another project, but on a whim I put a couple of strips of it down on a sheet of lexan and overlapped them 1/4 inch. Then I checked the resistance with my meter to see if the adhesive was conductive. I got readings of 3-5 ohms across the joints. The strips were about 3 inches long. It says on the label the adhesive is acrylic. But it must be thin enough of an adhesive layer that the resistance is only a couple of ohms on the overlapped joints. So it is probably conductive enough to do a good job of shielding. I have a couple of unfinished strat bodies on the way that I am going to try using that aluminum tape instead of the copper. The brand of tape I got was Reflectix Multi-Purpose Foil Tape. It was just a couple of dollars, I forget the price.

[RedHouse]

Brad, When I posted that, I started to mention the other side of the coin, about the self shielding if the start is hot. I even typed it in, then deleted it because I figured it would be better just to stick to the point. I seldom stick to the point very much anyhow. ...

Yeah, me too. Sometimes my wife calls me "Bradster McTangent".

[rjb]

...aluminum foil 2 inch wide tape... I put a couple of strips of it down on a sheet of lexan and overlapped them 1/4 inch. Then I checked the resistance with my meter to see if the adhesive was conductive. I got readings of 3-5 ohms across the joints.... The brand of tape I got was Reflectix Multi-Purpose Foil Tape.

I suggest you wait a few days, then recheck the resistance.
I've tried "duct work" aluminum tape (I don't remember the brand), and never been able to reliably maintain continuity across the seams.
The problem is not the adhesive- its the layer of oxide that forms on the aluminum.

[SonnyW]

I suggest you wait a few days, then recheck the resistance.
I've tried "duct work" aluminum tape (I don't remember the brand), and never been able to reliably maintain continuity across the seams.
The problem is not the adhesive- its the layer of oxide that forms on the aluminum.

Good point. I had already pulled up the tape, but I re-did it and will check it over the next week or so.