Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Here is a new music portal!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I was writing about the difference in song writing, not gigging. Writing a song now is typically done by deciding and starting a basic rhythm sequence and adding in additional percussion elements. The song becomes a song at a later time as it starts to flesh out with additional layers on layers. It is a rather mechanical process that lends itself to routine steps.
    The lyrics are the very last thing created. This is the reason sometimes this process takes more time than traditional writing, despite all the automated functions; because the song is not really a song or has a meaning until the very end. It is sort of like the difference between building a house layering one board at a time versus designing a home one board at a time, the concept, meaning and aesthetics are unknown until it is finished.
    Before, the common way to write a song is to have s vision or story, lyrics or music as a framework and meaning before a single sound is recorded. It is a song before getting near a recording device or computer. Maybe not a fleshed out song but the concept is known and that allows seeing how some musical idea either helps move the concept along or hinders at every step. The architect designs a home with the overall concept, and aesthetic in mind before thinking about individual boards and their exact placement. Architects and song writers had a lot in common in that way of working before the shift to rhythm based song writing. If the architect designed like songs are written now, he would start with some door knobs, or windows and place them, or cut and place 346 2x4s to various lengths or cut the carpet and lay it before possibly a floor existed or the size of the room was known and would not know when it was a house until it was finished

    Sometimes writing occurs in the studio(in the old day, now it is usually one person with a computer to creating the song as the result of laying down the components as the first and only step until he can't think of any more to add, then it is finished as a completed entity without arrangement, production or mixing steps as before) but what is meant is that the song was fleshed out or alternative arrangements were tried but the song actually was a song before anyone opening the sound proof door into the studio. If the production team are all aware of and understand the song intent and meaning, polishing the arrangements and lyrics is a natural process and when it works everyone knows it because it makes the intent of the song more clear.
    Use of recording too early in the process has hurt lyrics the most, it often sounds like how they really were written, as tacked on layer at the end.
    Song writers who are doing it only for their own fun or expression do not have to worry about intended audience but those who want to make it a career do have to be concerned with how the message is perceived and communicates to others. Tacked on, almost an afterthought lyrics are less likely to communicate.
    One of the biggest problems with the writing technique used by most now is that the song is "produced" from the start. Its meaning is entirely the finished product of the writing process. An example would be using some sound effect or theme as a base element of the song. The song is not that song without it so it is important in its appeal. The concept or meaning of the song goes away if done a different way. For a song writer, that means no one else can do that song and if by chance it was popular, it can't be covered. For a song writer, it is a dead end if others can't do it by adding their own stamp on it so it seems like the song was the actual expression of the artist. The potential audience is limited also since it can't be covered or reinterpreted by others because the song has no core independent of the sonic elements that the writer built upon.
    So aspiring song writers take note. If you want a career and to place songs, do not produce them. A producer/artist is looking for songs that can be interpreted by the artist so it sounds like he believes it. It is the rare producer who can "unhear" sonic elements that are built into the song. What they want is a song that has a melody and meaning without specialty production elements, where the meaning is in the core of the song regardless of the details of instrumentation, effects and temp. They will add those as appropriate for the artist.If you want producers to hear it or to remember to call you to see if you have a song for a project they are working on, supply a very basic vocal and melody, maybe only piano or acoustic guitar accompaniment. It will have a much better chance of making it into the artists project.
    Don't add percussion parts that are not playable because you might like them but it will sound awkward to an audience. If you are not a horn player, resist the notion to program in horn parts in your project because it is almost always awkward sounding to others. Get a horn player to program the sequence, just as getting a drummer to program the beatbox. It makes a difference in how the part is perceived. Resist the overly common practice of layering mania. If the concept is not clear to the listener with a modest layering, it is not going to be more clear when buried under 200 tracks of percussion. Don't laugh, that is not an unusual number. A friend was producing a reggae/punk band for Sony and I dropped by his home studio to see how it was going because it was several weeks late in delivery to the label. He was obsessing over a sound that when soloed was a little strange but nothing to worry about in its isolated playback He built up a few dozen slight variations on it, soloing each in sequence. I did not care at all since I did not listen to music with one track soloed to tell how it worked in the song. But apparently this percussion section had delayed him for almost a week. I asked him to just play the whole mix, he did, but only the percussion group and it was so complex and layered that no one would have been able to detect the part with a microscope. Just this percussion part was 197 layered tracks....for a punk band! In the old days he would have been able to tell instantly how any element fit or contributed to the overall song but now with such detail to focus on, he was obsessed with some of those details that would only be heard in his imagination and have less than zero impact on the communicative ability of the song. I have seem many home projects by amateurs with 500 tracks. If there was a meaning on concept somewhere in that pile of tracks, only the writer will ever know it while an audience will not.
    Slow record sales have many contributing causes but the root is poor song writing. It has also killed the follow-on market of covers.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Enzo View Post
      "Real musicians" might lay down tracks, but look at it this way:

      DaVinci painted the Mona Lisa. I bet he could also paint his garage. That isn't the same as a garage painter trying to come up with the Mona Lisa. Sure it is a lot or work to put together a drum track. Just that drum track will never pause and say "Hey, what if right her we did this...?"
      Two things.
      First, thanks Enzo for calling my attention to my unintentional slight. As I do consider someone who uses "tools" (as opposed to instruments) as musicians as you definitely create music! So apologies to those who read this in the future. But again, no slight was intended. Poor choice of terminology on my part, and my communication issues rearing their ugly head again.

      Second, I can definitely understand the value of additional input for reflective or alternate perspective. Point 1 above highlights that nicely. *chuckles* Your message played with talent, finesse, and grace Enzo. Thank you!

      Originally posted by Enzo View Post
      On the other hand, I stepped into a bar one evening, and a couple friends of mine happened to be playing on stage. They were a two piece with a drum machine. I bought three drinks and had them delivered to the band.
      ROFL. That's just awesome on so many levels.
      Start simple...then go deep!

      "EL84's are the bitches of guitar amp design." Chuck H

      "How could they know back in 1980-whatever that there'd come a time when it was easier to find the wreck of the Titanic than find another SAD1024?" -Mark Hammer

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Enzo View Post


        On the other hand, I stepped into a bar one evening, and a couple friends of mine happened to be playing on stage. They were a two piece with a drum machine. I bought three drinks and had them delivered to the band.
        Everyone knows the drum machine can't drink, he's driving....

        Comment


        • #19
          Two images come to mind...
          Click image for larger version

Name:	DrumMachine.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	674.7 KB
ID:	833992

          Click image for larger version

Name:	drummachinevomit.gif
Views:	1
Size:	532.9 KB
ID:	833993
          When the going gets weird... The weird turn pro!

          Comment


          • #20
            Ok Stan, I have a bit better understanding I believe of what you meant. TY again for the followup!

            So, what I'm getting from it at this point, is that you're geared more towards the lyrics first, then everything else can fall in place as need be/warranted. If that's a fair assessment, then I'm guessing that would be as a result of more traditional (perhaps even almost classical style) formal music training.

            And it'd be a safe bet as to why then, that would be the large part of why I'd be "out of my element" to some degree, and wasn't "getting it" in others.

            I had formal training in violin from like 6-8, then through early teens trombone...then tri's/quads/xylophone/trap set. But when I made the switch to guitar as a young teen, and my penchant for rock in particular...it just seemed counter-intuitive or even almost wrong. I had a self-imposed restriction of "This music is meant to be felt, not calculated" because it evoked that in me. Which is what most structured (read as: classical) compositions at that level/age in life felt like. Calculated. Being able to read music/play someone else's under those constraints just felt bland. It was often entertaining and to many degrees enjoyable, just not fulfilling.

            Rock was fulfilling. I learned to play guitar by ear, and simply turning on the radio, and learning to play along. And having the previous background no doubt helped. But with a critical ear...and many repetitions of listening, and then practice, I had to have it note for note perfect or I wasn't satisfied. And as I began nailing a song down, the *feeling* of exhilaration during execution was just automatic and was (I believe) imparted by hitting the notes exactly as the artist did. And that equated to almost a "literal translation" of emotions if you will. During execution, I'd get the distinct impression of what I perceived the artist had to be feeling while playing that. That process was revealing, as well as inspirational.

            I know I didn't technically replicate them in (m)any cases (exact position/finger structure), but sonically was enough for me. And by not having that pre-disposed set of "you do it this way, you can't do that..." I actually ended up coming up with unique ways of creating a structure/sound/style that is without a doubt my own. Both to my benefit, and detriment alike.

            I know that I could be light years ahead of where I am, in playing, had I found a teacher that could "make things clear to me". But given who I am and how I process things, that was evidently a tall order. But I've always thought "outside the box" in most, if not all things, compared to the majority, and that will always be an ongoing and daily adaptation. However, I've long since accepted that's just who I am. Rather than fight it as I did in the early years, I've learned to try and work around/with it.

            So that's why feeling to me is so much more important than a being a technical player. Though I without a doubt have MUCH respect for the dedication that technical players have. As I've spent time on that route as well and know what it entails.

            I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think music shouldn't be formulaic as a whole. I do agree that there are definitely techniques/formulas that can be very productive and positive, but I consider those as tools. Not requirements. Formulaic strikes me as a pre-defined requirement. And that just rubs me the wrong way. But I acknowledge and agree with the notion that there are/should be basic fundamentals that are simply "indisputable", and should always be a part. Just like a an octave will always be 12 half steps away. I take that as a given though. *shrugs*

            Ironically, the primary thing that drew me into electronics 35+ years ago, was that there was a concrete set of fundamental rules. But I'm almost the polar opposite with regard to guitar and making music. Go figure. lol

            Anyways, not sure that I intended to get into all of this, but, I fully appreciate being surrounded by other intelligent folks that challenge me to take another look, open my eyes to something I'd missed, or even re-assess as need be. This place is phenomenal in that regard.
            Start simple...then go deep!

            "EL84's are the bitches of guitar amp design." Chuck H

            "How could they know back in 1980-whatever that there'd come a time when it was easier to find the wreck of the Titanic than find another SAD1024?" -Mark Hammer

            Comment


            • #21
              Lots of replies here to what appears to be a spam post from a new member (I have to give it points for posting it in the appropriate forum.)

              Steve A.
              The Blue Guitar
              www.blueguitar.org
              Some recordings:
              https://soundcloud.com/sssteeve/sets...e-blue-guitar/
              .

              Comment


              • #22
                Spam by itself failed miserably
                People here either didnīt care about his "music" ot plain despised it
                The rest of the thread is the creation of a bunch of fine and well informed people
                MEF at its best
                Juan Manuel Fahey

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by J M Fahey View Post
                  Spam by itself failed miserably
                  People here either didnīt care about his "music" ot plain despised it
                  The rest of the thread is the creation of a bunch of fine and well informed people
                  MEF at its best
                  In the same way a song might start as a rhythm, melody, lyrics, indigestion, or the need for one more to fill the album, these threads can start from a sincere question or observation or a bot.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Funny how a thread about EDM DJ "perfomances" ended up talking about song writing!
                    And Stan, because I agree with you about song writing is the exact reason I reject the whole EDM thing, I find it a little ironic that you defended that type of music earlier in the thread.

                    Edit: upon re-reading your earlier post Stan, I see you were referring more to the actual live event, and not to the music itself.
                    "Everything is better with a tube. I have a customer with an all-tube pacemaker. His heartbeat is steady, reassuring and dependable, not like a modern heartbeat. And if it goes wrong he can fix it himself. You can't do that with SMD." - Mick Bailey

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by g-one View Post
                      Edit: upon re-reading your earlier post Stan, I see you were referring more to the actual live event, and not to the music itself.
                      I could not imagine torture in hell worse than listening to recorded electronica on a stereo at home but would the first in line for an event like this thread started out referring to. Live dance events are fun and exciting and the music fits but it is as much performance art by 30,000 people as music. No problem, I would go to Hardwell's events if they were closer.
                      In the late 60s we called the mass human performance art "be-ins" and involved music often as the catalyst for the real event that was spontaneous and unpredictable. It is a way of connecting with others through a common cultural experience. The only difference is the music is louder and the girls a lot hotter now.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        If you were able to pick up guitar by ear, you have more ear smarts than me but please do not confuse frameworks as calculated. They can be but not by skilled practitioners of the art of painting aural images in stranger's minds. The whole idea of using a common cultural derived framework such as 12 note scales is the have a common vocabulary with the audience so they can perceive what the composer/artist is trying to convey. Technical skill is usually required to most skillfully transcend the constraints of operating an instrument. I like jazz and for no small part, the creative output that breaks the rules, because the player has so mastered the technical part of playing that whole new terms in the musical vocabulary are available. All the greats innovators in classical or jazz were first tremendously skilled in the instruments themselves. Listen to Charlie Parker and what he does that could not be attempted by someone who had just ordinary high level of skill. Just take the Bebop masters, they did not just go out in left field, they extended the technical range of music theory and knew the theory and as well as anyone. The image of heroin nodding jazz players misses the point that almost all were extremely intelligent and learned about the art and science of music. Rock is much more formulaic than jazz or classical, and much easier to gain competency enough to communicate with an audience.
                        Some types of frameworks are by intention very limiting. Say, Bluegrass. It has a very small body of compositions but it is not about compsition or originality, it is about technical skill in playing the small set of standards. Go to a Blue Grass festival and hear the same songs over and over and no one minding the lack of variety. The audience and players are there to share slight variations on a theme of playing style and skill and having a standard set of material makes comparing meaning more. Being a champion fiddler means you beat the best with an even playing field, the same songs and so the little things you can do as a player to separate you from the others are noticed and admired.
                        To the non-fan, metal rock bands seem identical yet the glory goes to those who, just like in Blue Grass, can operate in a tightly constrained playing field and still stand out. That is the idea behind NASCAR with a fraction of a percent difference between any of the top cars as opposed to open sports class racing where very different cars designs share the track. The best driver is the one who wins more under the same conditions with cars that vary so little in NASCAR.
                        In narrow genre music, the same sort of common theme is not a formula as much as each playing field where the audience notices the nuances that a casual observer might never catch. Rock has gotten into a boring stage however and little has developed that is new and innovative like in the early periods. I love rock but even new groups seem more nostalgia bands than artists creating something new and exciting. Other than classical it is about the oldest popular framework for music without change. Rap is getting there and feels long in the tooth also. There are interesting things going on in dance music, bringing the thread full circle but it is a niche that has not the wide popularity compared to larger movements like rock.

                        It is about 10pm so time for me to get dressed and head out to the clubs....I got home at 5:30 this morning. That fact that dance keeps people in clubs longer than a live act is why DJs have solid income potential. 3 45minute sets of a rock act means the club never gets the income that a 6-7 hour audience of a DJ retains.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The spammer certainly picked the wrong forum for his spam. (I did not click on the link because I never click on links from new members with a single post.)

                          Here is a link to a great site for creating and listening to jams:

                          http://www.wikiloops.com


                          Here is a track with my friend Felix playing some great guitar:

                          wikiloops.com | "Short And Sassy" | free Funk backing track No.4996

                          By clicking on the "Remixes" tab you can see the original drum track and all of the remixes created from it. For any remix you can remove the last instrument or the last two instruments and add your own.

                          One disadvantage with the site... with it called wikiLOOPS it is unfortunate that the MP3 format was used since a two-second gap is automatically added to MP3 tracks so you can't create a real loop track. (Bandwidth was a lot more expensive back when this site was created- in today's world FLAC or WAV tracks could be used without breaking the banks.)

                          Steve A.
                          Last edited by Steve A.; 08-04-2014, 09:51 PM.
                          The Blue Guitar
                          www.blueguitar.org
                          Some recordings:
                          https://soundcloud.com/sssteeve/sets...e-blue-guitar/
                          .

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Steve A. View Post
                            The spammer certainly picked the wrong forum for his spam. (I did not click on the link because I never click on links from new members with a single post.)
                            Looks like quite the happy 'accident' then!! Look at everything it's generated.

                            And like you noted earlier.. at least it was in the right area, that kinda cinched it wasn't a bot. lol

                            Originally posted by Steve A. View Post
                            Here is a link to a great site for creating and listening to jams:

                            http://www.wikiloops.com
                            oooooooooooooh! New toy!! Ty for sharing, as I've not heard of this 'til now.

                            Originally posted by Steve A. View Post
                            Here is a track with my friend Felix playing some great guitar:

                            wikiloops.com | "Short And Sassy" | free Funk backing track No.4996
                            Felix is good! But the combo that they all came up with...wow. Nice laid back jam!

                            Safe bet I'll be spending more time on that site.

                            Originally posted by Steve A. View Post
                            By clicking on the "Remixes" tab you can see the original drum track and all of the remixes created from it. For any remix you can remove the last instrument or the last two instruments and add your own.
                            It's awesome to see all the different takes, and directions. This is a site that *should* really evolve into something HUGE. I hope it does! Hrmm..though it definitely raises A LOT of concerns about who owns what.

                            Do you know offhand if the participating musicians 'waive' rights upon publishing/participating there? I could easily see 'bands' being forged from working together there, and then have to fight with the site op wanting to 'own/market anything/everything' from a group that formed there as a result.
                            It'd be a shame to gain notoriety from something there, and then not be able to play it/sell it down the road.

                            Originally posted by Steve A. View Post
                            One disadvantage with the site... with it called wikiLOOPS it is unfortunate that the MP3 format was used since a two-second gap is automatically added to MP3 tracks so you can't create a real loop track. (Bandwidth was a lot more expensive back when this site was created- in today's world FLAC or WAV tracks could be used without breaking the banks.)

                            Steve A.
                            Thanks for sharing Steve
                            Start simple...then go deep!

                            "EL84's are the bitches of guitar amp design." Chuck H

                            "How could they know back in 1980-whatever that there'd come a time when it was easier to find the wreck of the Titanic than find another SAD1024?" -Mark Hammer

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hey thanks for sharing a good materiel.is there any other portal like you can share with us.
                              (sig spam deleted by tboy)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hey!!! Jhonlee is back !!!!!



                                I was getting somewhat worried about you , maybe your nuclear batteries were not available any more or something similar but see you were retrofitted and updated.

                                Now about what you are pushing today, I admit many of us are Rockers and we even have a few old Hippies, but seriously you think we need:
                                Studies endorse that Ibogaine has considerable potential in the treatment of hard drug addiction for example heroin, methadone, cocaine, crack and alcohol. There are also indications that it is useful in the treatment of tobacco addiction.
                                Juan Manuel Fahey

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X