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Thread: Swap out different Preamp Tube Type ?

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    Swap out different Preamp Tube Type ?

    Is going from one preamp tube to another just a matter of making sure the tube socket pins are connected to the correct wires, as in #3 = plate, #2 & #7 = heater, etc... Is that all that needs to be take into account, provided the voltages are more or less correct, and provided I use the proper grid, bias, and Plate resistors ?

    I am looking into swapping to another V1 tube with a higher amplification factor than the original, in hopes the new V1 tube can drive everything downstream a bit more, rather then the amp distorting at V1 heavily first. Swap is from a 6J5 to a 6SQ7.

    Just want to make sure I am not oversimplifying the whole thing.

    Thanks for your help !

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    The pinout of those two tubes is quite different, or are you saying you plan to rewire the socket?

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Looking at the data sheets, as far as I can tell the 6sq7 is not compatible with a socket wired for a 6j5. So I guess I would say that just plugging a 6sq7 into a socket wired for a 6j5 IS oversimplifying it.?. As would be the stock load for the 6j5 compared to that for a 6sq7. Were you planning on rewiring the sockets and changing some component values with the swap?

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    I'll also add that it should be difficult to clip the very first gain stage by itself. Have you scoped the amp to verify that is where the distortion is coming from? If so, I suspect circuit problems other than the tube or tube type.

    Maybe a schematic so we can see what you're working with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HaroldBrooks View Post
    I am looking into swapping to another V1 tube with a higher amplification factor than the original, in hopes the new V1 tube can drive everything downstream a bit more, rather then the amp distorting at V1 heavily first.
    That sounds backwards to me. If it's heavily clipping at V1 it needs a tube with less amplification not more. A tube with more amplification will make it clip even harder. Also if it's already clipping at V1 it won't be able to drive the following stages any harder.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave H View Post
    That sounds backwards to me. If it's heavily clipping at V1 it needs a tube with less amplification not more. A tube with more amplification will make it clip even harder. Also if it's already clipping at V1 it won't be able to drive the following stages any harder.
    I got the impression that he's driving the input with a booster, clipping V1. Then, since V1 only has an AF around 20 he's not getting satisfaction in the later stages.?. But I can't be sure.

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    That's correct Chuck H. Sorry, I didn't describe it well enough, yes I will rewire the socket to accommodate the 'New' and different 6SQ7 pin outs. Just wondering if I am overlooking anything else besides the difference in cathode, grid leak, and plate resistors.

    Yes, I am driving the tube with a boost up-front, but that sounds like crap alone. When you don't use a boost, the amps later stages don't seem to be running into distortion, perhaps because of the V1 lower gain.

    I've never designed any amp in my life, so I don't know what is essential, and what is not regarding a match between stages.

    I don't have a scope, but I sure should get one and learn how to use it at this point !!!

    Am I missing anything else ?

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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    I'm guessing with no schematic, of course. But, wouldn't it be easier to mod the circuit slightly rather than reconfigure for a new tube? Plate resistor, cathode cap, etc. There ought to be plenty of easier ways to get more gain out of the circuit, if that's what you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    I'm guessing with no schematic, of course. But, wouldn't it be easier to mod the circuit slightly rather than reconfigure for a new tube? Plate resistor, cathode cap, etc. There ought to be plenty of easier ways to get more gain out of the circuit, if that's what you want.
    Just found the schematic (It's seems very close at first glance) online. I will take your advice and first measure everything over the weekend, to see if it's in spec or not. As usual for me, my enthusiasm may lead me to putting the cart before the horse and jump to something more radical like an altogether different tube swap. Instead now I will play around with what I have and see how far I can get, before making a more radical change. I still haven't checked all the resistors, voltages, etc. and that should come first to see what I yield with the existing design and parts.

    Thanks for sobering me up at this point ! I will let everyone know how things progress with this. I reached a type of "Wall" with my current crop of guitar amps, that is I've modified every last one, some more, some less, and they are all working great... Leaving me now with nothing to do. This new project will create just the trouble I need to stay active with tube amps !

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaroldBrooks View Post
    Just found the schematic (It's seems very close at first glance) online.
    Could you post it or link it please? Or at least tell us what the amp is so WE can try to look it up?

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    In the meantime... I found this gadget. The description is a little confusing, I think there's a language barrier. But this adapter seems to allow you to plug in a parallel 12au7 tube, or perhaps link one of it's triodes, to replace the 6j5 triode in the circuit. No socket replacement or rewiring. Since a 12au7 pinout is the same as other 12**7 tubes you could use this adaptor to plug in a 12ay7 or a even a 12ax7 provided the plate and cathode resistors in the circuit are appropriate. This would provide a considerable increase in gain. But I'd like to see a schematic before endorsing this maneuver.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Piece-Gold...-/202437648734

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    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    In the meantime... I found this gadget. The description is a little confusing, I think there's a language barrier. But this adapter seems to allow you to plug in a parallel 12au7 tube, or perhaps link one of it's triodes, to replace the 6j5 triode in the circuit. No socket replacement or rewiring. Since a 12au7 pinout is the same as other 12**7 tubes you could use this adaptor to plug in a 12ay7 or a even a 12ax7 provided the plate and cathode resistors in the circuit are appropriate. This would provide a considerable increase in gain. But I'd like to see a schematic before endorsing this maneuver.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Piece-Gold...-/202437648734
    Been busy with family stuff, sorry for the delay.

    Here's the schematic on page 182 :

    http://www.nucow.com/SkizsPdfOnly/Su...lumes/1957.pdf

    It's an old Zenith Hi-Fi amp, but looking at the tubes, I realized it's close enough for a guitar amp, after a couple of minor tweaks. Should have said this from the start, but I was planning a trip and typing too quickly, so I left things out in the original posts.

    It appears I jumped the gun on this one (again !), as I found a few issues that were causing the problem, starting with the way I was hooking up the speaker, and ending with the bad wax coupling caps to the 6V6's. I've straightened those things out, and the amp is now a screamer, even with the original 6J5 still in place.

    I would still like to get an adapter just for the heck of it, and see what it sounds like with a higher amplification factor 12AX7 up front in V1, or perhaps I will wire up an octal 6SQ7 just to see if that sounds any better. All in all this "new" 1957 amp makes a great guitar amp. It's already got a pretty good sounding presence circuit built in. It was originally a Hi-Fi Zenith amp, and I might play with the values of the cap to see if I can make even better. This amp is a pleasant surprise for me !

    Once again, Thanks for your patience and help Chuck !

    And thanks to everyone else as well ! You guys are all super !

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    Last edited by HaroldBrooks; 10-03-2019 at 10:02 AM.

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    My only caveat for the adapter would be to test the pinout to see if it isolates one triode or if it puts them in parallel for the dual triode substitute. Because the description doesn't really say. My guess is that it isolates one triode.

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    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    My only caveat for the adapter would be to test the pinout to see if it isolates one triode or if it puts them in parallel for the dual triode substitute. Because the description doesn't really say. My guess is that it isolates one triode.
    Probably the single triode, I would guess as well. This "amp" is going to be a lot of fun for me, as it is close to a guitar amp by design, but I just received it as a chassis, so I can dig in at length without worrying about stripping wood screws that results from taking a real amp apart too many times.

    I might see if I can change some of the parameters of the input selector switch, as it was designed for the Records / interfaces of the day, but I'm not joking when I tell you the amp sounds quite good, as it sits. The Wax coupling caps I replaces were 600V .1uf Sprague units, and I put poly 47nf 630v ones in place. I'm going to see if I can bump up the gain a bit with cathode bypass caps, and check the bias of everything, along with cleaning further.

    Thanks for the help, and I will buy that adapter today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    My only caveat for the adapter would be to test the pinout to see if it isolates one triode or if it puts them in parallel for the dual triode substitute. Because the description doesn't really say. My guess is that it isolates one triode.
    Made some changes to the amp to increase gain and change the distortion / tone.

    First thing I did was to knock back C9 (see negative feedback circuit) from .047uf down to .005uf, while eliminating the corresponding 39k resistor all together. This added some needed gain and changed the tone of the presence control. I tried several resistor capacitor combinations, and this one (just using a smaller cap) seemed to create the best presence tone (a bit hairy on the highs) while not adding some, but not too much gain, so as to destroy the already smooth distortion all together.

    The Bass and Treble controls behave rather oddly when the amp being pushed hard, as they seem to add too much, or subtract too much. Not sure what's going on here, but I dropped the .047uf cap to a .022uf for the treble circuit, and it helped a little. When you back off the treble entirely in the stock configuration, it seems to boost the super low frequencies and cause a nasty type of blocking distortion. Same with turning the Bass up fully. Not too worry though, if you adjust both controls appropriate to the high level gain (as in death metal level gain), the amp does behave itself, and the distortion is quite smooth, so it seems you just have to be aware of this.

    I also backed off on the size of the C11 and C12 Coupling caps to the 6V6s from .1uf to .047uf. They were leaky, so I took the opportunity to make them smaller as well. I also found a couple of plate resistors (the ones for the PI tube ) that were out of spec in ohms, so I replaced those and the voltages match the schematic for the two 12ax7 plates now. The plates on the 6v6s are 355vdc and the grids are 315vdc, so that seems good as well. No red plating, but the tubes are biased close to maximum one being 13.7 watts and the other 12.6 watts dissipation, so I am going to leave it as is.

    At this point is sounds so good, I probably will just stick with the 6J5 preamp tube, but when the adapter arrives I will try the 12ax7 just to see how it works.

    Any other suggestions are welcomed ! I am experimenting, so I don't mind making changes and then reversing them, depending on what transpires. Nice to have an inexpensive test amp like this ! It's a cheap but usable toy for me, something I only have time into, but it's similar to some of my other amps.\

    I am intrigued most by the presence circuit on this little amp, and the way it screams when driven beyond all good sense, using a lot of boost up front.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I see that the amp has 2 independent global feedback loops, the second one leading to the vol pot at the input also providing RIAA equalization.
    You may try to ground the junction between C3 and the 2200 Ohm resistor to deactivate this loop.
    Also lifting C2 would increase treble and probably gain.

    Edit: If the amp is going to be used with guitar only I would remove the filter components at the input, change the vol pot to 1M log and add a 47pF to 100pF bright cap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    I see that the amp has 2 independent global feedback loops, the second one leading to the vol pot at the input also providing RIAA equalization.
    You may try to ground the junction between C3 and the 2200 Ohm resistor to deactivate this loop.
    Also lifting C2 would increase treble and probably gain.

    Edit: If the amp is going to be used with guitar only I would remove the filter components at the input, change the vol pot to 1M log and add a 47pF to 100pF bright cap.
    Thanks Helmholtz !

    I missed the second Global feedback loop. I will try the changes you recommended and let you know how it goes. I think I am going to leave the input filtration portion intact for now (Still trying your changes to C2 and C3), but I might change everything later for sure, once I understand the amp better. I will probably have a switch between the original input filters and the guitar style one you just suggested. Just need to buy some parts along with a switch first. Still have lot's of things to look at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    My only caveat for the adapter would be to test the pinout to see if it isolates one triode or if it puts them in parallel for the dual triode substitute. Because the description doesn't really say. My guess is that it isolates one triode.
    Chuck, got the adapter today (took a long time), and promptly put adapter in place of the 6J5 V1 preamp, along with one of my Long Black plate RCA 12AX7. I've used that type of vintage tube in V1 in almost every amp I own, with the exception of one or two that use JJs.

    Ready ? The 12AX7 in this Zenith Hi-Fi amp doesn't sound nearly as good (to me) as the 6J5 does ! I realize it has little to do with the tube, and probably just the way the whole circuit accepts the 12AX7 at present, but there it is !

    Let me explain my qualitative assessment, just so you can see what I personally was looking for :

    The Original 6J5 has more lower midrange and bass, and is clearer given the same level of gain and that sounds better IMHO. I think it may have something to do with the fact that it may makes better use of the amp as it is, as in the 150vdc plate voltage, the 33k plate resistor, the global negative feedback, etc...

    The 12AX7 has considerably more signal gain than the 6J5. This in turn must hit the second 12AX7 gain stage in the PI tube harder than the 6J5 did and that's another element. The 12AX7 in the V1 position in this amp sound noticeably thinner, and a lot less lively and flatter then the 6J5, so much so that I would bet I could spot the difference blindfolded, easily.

    I trust my ear generally when making mods for tone and response, as I know what serves me best, and in this case the 6J5 will definitely stay put in this converted Hi-Fi to guitar amp ! I would have never guessed that in a million years, but the old octal tube sounds better in this amp !

    Thanks for your help in showing me where to buy the adapter. I would have spent a fair amount of time rewiring the socket for anther tube, but now I know the original 6J5 is the good one ! I have the rig "muscle" up front to drive the amp into insane levels of gain even with the 6J5, and while super high gain sounds good in bedroom playing (when you are pretending !) I usually back off a fair amount during actual gigs.

    Once again, thanks for your expert help, and feel free to comment on this latest test !

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    That result doesn't surprise me. Consider that ANY tube may not sound good when operated in a circuit that's not idealized for it. But you could still plug a 12au7 or even a 12ay7 into that adapter and very likely get good performance. Which is something I would try because if it works out then you have an easy option whenever the 6j5 gives up.

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    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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    Member HaroldBrooks's Avatar
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    I have a 12au7 and will do just that !

    Thanks for the idea !

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Find a 12ay7 if you can too. One of my favorite tubes! They are much happier at lower plate loads than 12ax7's and sound very (what I call) "tubey" The antithesis of "thin". And still twice the gain of the 6j5 or 12au7. It could be a very good thing.

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    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

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    Member HaroldBrooks's Avatar
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    Put in the 12au7 and it's ok, but so far the 6J5 is my favorite for the tone and response in this amp.

    I will definitely try a 12ay7 and see how it goes, I like the fact that there are so many tubes as subs for a 12ax7 !

    I've already tried different 12ax7 tubes in the second gain stage/PI tube, and a modern Mesa branded 12ax7 works best, again, despite what I have hoped would be an RCA or some other vintage variant. But I will keep rolling as long as it makes sense.

    Bumping the screen voltage higher worked out great (reduced DC node resistor size), but last night playing up a storm, I saw the screen on one tube glowing just a hair, so I upped the screen resistor on that one tube only from 470ohm to 1.5kohm. At first I tried increasing both, but I noticed a slight difference in compression (too much) by using bigger resistors on both, and when I switched back to the 470 ohm for the one "good" tube, it got better again. That was a subtle change, but I believe a real one. In any event the one glowing screen is gone, but the sound is still awesome with the high screen voltage.

    Question : Should one attempt to keep screen voltages as stable as possible ? It's my understanding that maximum power output is achieved with no sag, but I also realize it's not just about power output ! but tone and the interaction between all the components before, and down stream.

    Thanks for the help !

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    Last edited by HaroldBrooks; 10-23-2019 at 01:05 AM.

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