lacquering tweed- with what? (in UK)

[The Captain]

hi,

I had thought fender tweed was lacquered, having a tough yellowy gubbins on.. but apparantly its an extra process/ layer.. but of what? I'm in UK so if anyone could point me as to what the heck this lacquer stuff is called over here, & possibly where to buy..

..Id be very grateful. thanks capt.

[Sir Cuitous]

I believe it is called "lacquer". Specifically, nitrocellulose lacquer is what was used on the classic Fender tweed cabinet coverings. Here's a link:

Manchester Guitar Tech

I spray lacquer every week on guitars, but I have finished a tweed cab once. It was very simple. Use clear lacquer which you will see imparts a darker, amber/yellowish color to your tweed - very nice. You may use multiple applications. I would suggest two to three applications. Be careful not to over lacquer the tweed. It starts to look less like fabric and more like a hard shell if you spray too much.

[distorto]

Bullseye shellac is what a lot of folks use (myself included) they make an amber tinted version that people favor but it's too red for my taste. I hand tint the plain Shellac with a little yellow aline dye to give it more of a wheat color. I brush on 3 to four coats and it looks great. You can follow up with a clear lacquer if you want extra sheen. I belive Bullseye should be avail worldwide but I'm not 100%

[Sir Cuitous]

Polyurethane will also work. Come to think of it, I may have added a small amount of amber color to the lacquer when I sprayed the tweed.

[TD_Madden]

If you want to use a colored shellac, first put a coat of CLEAR on to pretect the seams from being too dark when you apply the colored shellac.

[Chuck H]

Because niether shellac or lacquer tint well with "universal" tints (those used by most paint stores) I use the polyurethane. Anolin dyes and other tints that are appropriate for shellac and lacquer must be ordered from a distributor so thats a pain. Pure yellow dye is too yellow anyhow so you must order a special mix (which costs more) or order mutiple bottles and mix it yourself (also a pain). For the pros reading this, let me qualify my statements. I am a "tinter" and have worked many years in the architectual coatings industry. Product aquisition and tinting are NOT a pain for me. But if I had never done it before and didn't know what to use to tint different products it would certainly be a pain.

Point is, the easy way for the novice to go is to use polyurethane. It has excellent self leveling properties and good open time so it brushes well (no spray equipement needed to get a good job. Lacquer and shellac are very fast and can be difficult to brush), polyurethane tints with the tints used at the stores where it is sold so you you don't have to buy or mix any extra stuff, it's available in different sheen levels (shellac is usually only available in gloss) so you can pick the "age" of the look with your sheen as well as color and it's more durable than both lacquer and shellac. In fact Kendrick, who does alot of restoration work on vintage Fender amps, reccommends polyurethane for this purpose.

If you MUST have the real deal vintage coating then semi gloss nitrocellulouse lacquer is what you want. You can tint it with a small amount of "lacquer stain" in a "yellow oxide" or "raw sienna" color. Lacquer should be sprayed. Brushing it is nearly impossible. Especially if you have never done it. As was mentioned earlier, put a coat of clear on before applying a tinted coat.

If you choose to go with polyurethane you should get Varathane satin finish. Have the clerk at the store put 8 "increments" of "yellow oxide" or "raw sienna" tint into a quart. Also get two spray cans of the same stuff. Apply a coat of clear with one of the spray cans. Let dry for two days. Then brush on a coat of the tinted product. If you want more color wait two days and brush on another coat and your done. If you don't need more color then wait two days and spray on another coat of clear and your done. easy peazy.

If you don't want to mess around with brushing tinted products to simulate age there is a trick you can do to "age" the finish almost instantly. But it is unpleasant. You just spray on three coats of lacquer or polyurethane (it's actually best to brush at least one coat of the polyurethane because it is thicker than lacquer and needs to be be brushed into the pores of the fabric)
Then you must build a small SEALABLE booth from 1x2 lumber and a plastic tarp. The booth should be about three times the size of your amp cabinet. DO THIS OUTSIDE. preferably under some cover to avoid condensation You place the amp inside the booth on small blocks along with a hot plate. On the hot plate you put a pan with 3/4 cup of household ammonia. Do a test ahead of time with the same hot plate and pan using water to determine a simmering setting. Now, with the amp and hotplate with pan and ammonia SEALED in the booth, plug in the hotplate. When you see steam forming let the ammonia vaporize for about 30 minutes and unplug the hotplate. Leave the whole thing sit overnight. Be careful not te breath the ammonia fumes when retrieving the amp. The fumes will burn your eyes and your lungs so it's best to open the booth and walk away for a few minutes before retrieving the amp. If there is any condensation on the amp just wipe it dry. If it is not already yellowed it will be over the next few days. Which is probably the soonest you would be able to bring it in the house anyhow.

Cheers

Chuck

[Diablo]

Nice tutorial Chuck!

[Chuck H]

Thanks. Once in a while a post comes up that my peripheral knowledges are suited for and I love to show off. Oh yeh, there's that whole "helping out" thing too

Chuck

[Five_E35]

I did one some years ago with 2 coats of Bulleyes Shellac and a brush. For the first coat I used a 50/50 mix of amber and clear, the second was all clear and after it dried I hit it with some fine steel wool. It come out somewhere between a lighter Victoria and the almost too dark(IMO) Fender. One thing I'm still not sure about is what happens if it gets rained on. I've thought about hitting it with a finish coat of nitro, but don't want to take it all apart again. I don't know about the UK, but Walmart sells Bullseye shellac as well as Deft Brushing laquer for significantly less than places like Woodworld. Deft is Nitro and is also available in spray cans, but really smells so do it outside.

[TD_Madden]

I just gave it a couple coats of paste-wax after the shellac was fully dry.....nice and waterproof.

[Chuck H]

I don't like to contradict advice when it's subjective. And I'm not kicking anyone under the bus. But there are two good reasons not to use shellac. and two not to use wax.

Shellac continues to get harder and harder as it ages. This is not as good a thing as it sounds like because it also means it gets more and more brittle. Imagine starting with a sheet of "plastic wrap" that eventually turns into glass. Because this finish is being applied to fabric (which is generally softer and more flexible than wood or metal) shellac can eventually become too brittle to perform well on this substrate. Lacquer also hardens as it ages. Just look at all those old guitars with the checked lacquer finishes. But not as bad as shellac. If lacquer can check on wood then consider what shellac might do after ten or fifteen years on fabric. The finish will start to become cloudy and it will be even more opaque wherever the amp gets rubbed or bumped. This is the result of many tiny fissures in the hardened finish.

Shellac IS hard to brush. The reason is that it is alcohol based and that makes it very fast drying. Using clear shellac the result is "brush drag", which results in uneven mill thickness and drag marks. Not especially visible in tweed I know. But it can be and there are slower finishes that can be applied by brush. With amber shellac you get the brush drag also and this results in "lap marks", which is where the pigments in the product double up where the brush drags compared to where it doesn't. Again, not especially visible on tweed but it can be so why take the chance. There is no possible way to finish the entire cabinet or even one side while the shellac is still wet and workable.

Any wax you apply to a surface needs to be buffed to provide hardness and sheen. Because tweed is textured it is not easy to buff inside the valleys without doing damage to the finish or the tweed itself. If you don't buff properly you won't get the protection the wax is supposed to offer anyhow and the unbuffed wax in the pores of the finished tweed will have a cloudy appearance. Also, any wax you apply will have to be stripped off if you ever want to apply another coat of finish for any reason. If the amp is older and has checks or fissures in the finish the wax can actually stain the tweed premenantly making adding more finish impossible.

Don't ream me. I know some of you have finished your tweed amps with shellac and wax and are very happy. but these are the facts guys. If you ever have it to do over again I hope you will consider alternatives for your own benefit. You must have gotten your advice from somewhere. But of all the advice I ever hear given regarding any kind of construction, finishing advice is always the most ill informed. I think the reason is that you need to have a working relationship and awareness of many different chemicals to even begin to know what your talking about. Most amp restorers and hardware store clerks simply don't have that.

Chuck

[distorto]

I don't know...those original lacquered Fenders are 50+ years old and look amazing.

[Chuck H]

I don't know...those original lacquered Fenders are 50+ years old and look amazing.

It is hard to tell since all of the old tweeds I've seen are in pretty rough shape for other reasons as well. But if you look at how most of the old ones are stained it's clear that the lacquer is no longer sealing that tweed.

I did stipulate that shellac is worse than lacquer about brittleness. I also mentioned in my first post that if you want original then lacquer is the way to go.

What I didn't mention, but another poster did, is that Deft is a true nitrocellulouse lacquer. And it's available in spray cans. And they are really good spray cans. So this would be an option IMO. Just let it dry up nice and tight for a couple of days then do the vaporized ammonia trick and you have the real deal aged finish just like an original. Only brand new...Cool.

Chuck

[The Captain]

Hi folks, many thanks for replies, especially the long ones.

As i mentioned I am in Uk, so unfortunately for me, the replies tend to be n/a. ie the names mentioned are just not found here..

So if I can reitterate slightly differently: s'one somewhere has mentioned carpainters "cellulose lacquer" over here in UK. So looking on ebay I find this..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1k-clearcoat-l...1%7C240%3A1318

**Can anyone, pref in UK, tell me if this is the kind of stuff.. or to anyone in UK in general: what stuff do I lacquer fender tweed with/ what is the name of such stuff -as to be found in the UK?

thanks, capt.

[MWJB]

Button polish, try your local hardware store. I know Chuck doesn't like shellac but, depending on the tweed you use, you can get ball-park on a genuine 50's tweed amp (we've done plenty of "side by side" comparisons on this), most of which are rarely the same shade from panel to panel anyway. It's what EVERYONE I know uses.