... So why exactly dont P-90's have metal covers?

[belwar]

Just hoping to start a theoretical discussion here...

So the P-90 and the old Alnico pickups were invented in what .. 1947 ish? and that pickup evolved from the bar pickup (charlie christian). The bar pickup didn't have a metal cover, and im assuming gibson didnt do it for a reason... Though the reason eludes me. Design? Cost? Tone? hadnt't been done before? I know other makers of various pickups were using nickel silver covers (i.e. Dearmond) in the very early fifties, but I think the P-90 never got one.

A shot in the dark was maybe that it had something to do with WWII and a lack of metal or the cost of it, but that is just a guess. The first metal cover im aware of for gibson was the PAF, and I recall reading that Seth Lover didnt want a cover at all which also leads me to believe there wasnt a cover on the earlier pickups for a reason..

I think about this because frankly I hate the mounting mechanism for P-90's. The concept for mounting a humbucker just seems to make so much more sense. Since I started pickup winding i've be wanting to make a P-90 that mounts like a humbucker (but is shaped like a P-90). To do it would take three parts .. A base plate, A cover, and a mounting ring. All three could be acomplished for about 10 grand. A lot of capital any way your look at it.

So what kind of reasons can you imagine why a P-90 wouldnt have a metal cover? What kind of change is it going to have on tone?

I'm not looking for specific answer, just really wanted to get a discussion going about this topic

[spud1950]

There's an easy and inexpensive way to mount a P90 to the pickguard with the advantage of heigth adjustment like a humbucker. Make an adapter bar.It eliminates the great expense of having to pay to have the tooling made for a custom baseplate.You just use the standard one.Fender and Reverend have some models on which they do this.Reverend makes theirs out of aluminum,Fender uses brass.Here's the Fender example on one of their Tele models.Neither company uses pickup rings though.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i2...pterbar1-1.jpg

[black_labb]

theres the dogear p90's. you could put springs under the ears and use that to adjust in much the same way. or you could put springy foam (or a spring if you can figure a way to keep the springs on... long screws maybe) under a normal p90 for a similar effect. normal p90 may be a bit fiddly with the screws so close making the adjustment quite interactive (adjust 1 and it changes the height on the other a fair bit) but it couldnt take that long to get right. normal p90's look cleaner anyway.

[spud1950]

Right,the dogear base.Forgot about that.Perhaps you could just solder some nuts to tabs or use something like a PEM nut to accommodate the adjustment screws.

Edit- What I was thinking of using are called Rivetnuts,not Pem nuts.Once you found the correct size,they would be real easy to install into the slot in the dogear base tab.

[GlennW]

Some dogears have metal covers. I've read they bleed off the highs a bit if they're grounded.

This was a HB guitar, but I changed it. Since the picture was taken the bridge pickup has been shimmed with a piece of leather. These covers aren't grounded and the pickups are soapbars.

Edit: found this on ebay... http://cgi.ebay.com/1967-Gibson-ES-3...QQcmdZViewItem

[black_labb]

Right,the dogear base.Forgot about that.Perhaps you could just solder some nuts to tabs or use something like a PEM nut to accommodate the adjustment screws.

Edit- What I was thinking of using are called Rivetnuts,not Pem nuts.Once you found the correct size,they would be real easy to install into the slot in the dogear base tab.

you can use the screw into the body as well if you dont need to mount it to a pickguard directly.

[Possum]

....

You're missing a very important part of Gibson history. Before there were P90's there were P13's, which evolved into P90s. They also used 2 bar magnets in the same fashion, and a common vertical pole. Early ones had a steel bar blade type thingy, later they sunk pole screws into the vertical bar, real close to a P90 except it had a steel core and a bunch of other details, but the idea was nearly there. These ALL had metal covers, probably N/S. I've duplicated the best design of the four ideas they went through, but can't get metal covers for it. Bare Knuckles makes metal soap bar covers, I think its a cool idea and wish I could get those covers for my P13's.....

[David Schwab]

I think about this because frankly I hate the mounting mechanism for P-90's. The concept for mounting a humbucker just seems to make so much more sense.

I hate the way humbuckers are mounted. They wobble, you can't get the top angled to the strings, and the dumb long legs require you to rout away extra wood. It was a questionable design 50 years ago, and it hasn't been improved IMO.

At the very least they should have three or four height adjustment screws.

A lot of bass pickups screw directly to the wood, and that works fine.

P-90's on SG's with pickguards adjust the way humbuckers do, but they don't have the dumb long legs.

I once had an ES-330TD with metal covered dogears. You couldn't adjust the height, it was just screwed down to the body (as shown in the photo of the ES-335 above).

[RedHouse]

...I hate the way humbuckers are mounted. They wobble, you can't get the top angled to the strings, and the dumb long legs require you to rout away extra wood. It was a questionable design 50 years ago, and it hasn't been improved IMO......

Aye, well said!
(sounds of beer steins clanging on the bar)

It's funny how Fender added the extra screw...but the string angle on Strat/Tele doesn't need it, on the other hand the Les Paul carved top needs it desperatly and doesn't have it. Life if funny that way.

[David Schwab]

Aye, well said!
(sounds of beer steins clanging on the bar)

It's funny how Fender added the extra screw...but the string angle on Strat/Tele doesn't need it, on the other hand the Les Paul carved top needs it desperatly and doesn't have it. Life if funny that way.

Gibson could do it, but then people would make a stink about it! But then Gibson would rather make guitars that tune themselves.

Then of course all the third party pickup makers have to make parts that fit existing guitars.

I like the way Carvin does it, they have three holes on each side. So you can mount it several ways.

[scottmccullor]

springs, wood and tone

So this brings the question to my mind....Don't we choose/buy/build guitars with certain neck and body woods for their tonal qualities? How much of the resonance of the mahogany or the swamp ash is lost in pickups that are mounted with springs? Wouldn't it be worth the trade off to get the full impact of the body resonance by mounting the pickup firmly to the wood by losing the easy adjustability?

I understand that commercially produced guitars must have that adjustability but one-offs and customs could be built that way couldn't they? Maybe I'm just showing my ignorance.

[voodoochild]

Just hoping to start a theoretical discussion here...

So the P-90 and the old Alnico pickups were invented in what .. 1947 ish? and that pickup evolved from the bar pickup (charlie christian). The bar pickup didn't have a metal cover, and im assuming gibson didnt do it for a reason... Though the reason eludes me. Design? Cost? Tone? hadnt't been done before? I know other makers of various pickups were using nickel silver covers (i.e. Dearmond) in the very early fifties, but I think the P-90 never got one.

A shot in the dark was maybe that it had something to do with WWII and a lack of metal or the cost of it, but that is just a guess. The first metal cover im aware of for gibson was the PAF, and I recall reading that Seth Lover didnt want a cover at all which also leads me to believe there wasnt a cover on the earlier pickups for a reason..

I think about this because frankly I hate the mounting mechanism for P-90's. The concept for mounting a humbucker just seems to make so much more sense. Since I started pickup winding i've be wanting to make a P-90 that mounts like a humbucker (but is shaped like a P-90). To do it would take three parts .. A base plate, A cover, and a mounting ring. All three could be acomplished for about 10 grand. A lot of capital any way your look at it.

So what kind of reasons can you imagine why a P-90 wouldnt have a metal cover? What kind of change is it going to have on tone?

I'm not looking for specific answer, just really wanted to get a discussion going about this topic

It's pretty easy to do. I just take a P-90 bobbin and cut the ends down so it will fit inside of a humbucker cover. I use the humbucker cover with no holes and drill my own. I do the same on the baseplate by drilling holes in the center. You have to shim around an below the bobbin but that's not too bad. You can't see it with a cover. These make wonderful sounding neck pickups in combination with a humbucker in the bridge. I think Duncan does it with his Phat Cat design too. He's just big enough to afford the right parts without modifying anything.

[TD_Madden]

Gibson could do it, but then people would make a stink about it! But then Gibson would rather make guitars that tune themselves.

Then of course all the third party pickup makers have to make parts that fit existing guitars.

I like the way Carvin does it, they have three holes on each side. So you can mount it several ways.

My older Guild bluesbird has two holes on the upper side of the pickup rings, and uses a little three-hole brass adapter that bolts to that pickup leg. Simple and easy. probably a 1/4 cent extra cost.

[BluPup8]

I hate the way humbuckers are mounted. They wobble, you can't get the top angled to the strings, and the dumb long legs require you to rout away extra wood. It was a questionable design 50 years ago, and it hasn't been improved IMO.

The reason they DON'T wobble is because of the leg length. The reason you CAN get the top angled to strings is because the pickup mounting rings are angled. That is by design, it was NEVER questionable 50 years ago and it needs NO improvment whatsoever.

[David Schwab]

The reason they DON'T wobble is because of the leg length. The reason you CAN get the top angled to strings is because the pickup mounting rings are angled. That is by design, it was NEVER questionable 50 years ago and it needs NO improvment whatsoever.

I disagree. Explain why long legs make them less wobbly. They do wobble. You need a very long spring to keep it stiff with the longer legs. With shorter legs you can use shorter stiffer springs. And they still wobble! Some guitars don't have angled mounting rings, or any mounting rings, and you can't angle the pickups. Plus even though the rings are angled, the pickup cavity is not.

I just installed humbuckers in 5 guitars this week. The only ones with mounting rings were two Jacksons, and one had flat chrome rings, and the other had low angled rings, which were too steep an angle. The stock pickups were very wobbly so I used tubing instead of springs to sure them up. One Fender had one flat ring and one angled ring, and the angle ring was at the wrong angle for the neck angle.

Plus, even though the rings are at an angle, the hole going through them is not! The bottom on the ring, which is what the pickup references to, is flat.

It's a dumb system. Go look at some Les Pauls and tell me the pickups are angled to the strings correctly. They aren't. That's why you often see more string wear on one bobbin than the other.

Like in this post:

http://music-electronics-forum.com/s...40&postcount=1

If the pickup was angled parallel to the strings, you wouldn't have the wear on one bobbin, which was higher, because it wasn't angled. The strings hit the slug coil because they angled down past it, while the pickup was straight.

Stop making excuses for bad engineering just because it's traditional.