Why is it guitar builders won't pay a living wage?

[EffectsGuru]

It really pisses me off... I went to school at Roberto-Venn School of Guitar Luthiery (one of the top guitar building schools in the US, lasts 6 months long with 10 hour days, 5 days a week), and graduate, only to find out that the $10,000+ money that I spent to attend the school, apparently counts for absolutely NOTHING, as the guitar builders will hire someone off the street that can't even play a guitar, let alone build one, for the same crappy NON-LIVING wage of $8.00/hour that they would pay me to start. It's pretty infuriating... why attend a school like that? I got nothing but the knowledge, and thats great, but I can't work for $8.00 an hour and live in California.. thats just not even possible, it's not a living wage, not in Cali (where the majority of the work is), are there any builders out there that start a graduate at at least $12.00 per hour? I don't know about you guys, but that doesn't sound unreasonable to me. Are there any builders on here... that could please explain to me why you think it's acceptable to pay some one less than a living wage, and pay them the same as some one who didn't attend a school. This is an issue with not just the guitar industry but across the board... I remember a time when you could get a job, making $12-14/hour with no previous experience and good job security in a union... but those jobs are very hard to get (I've been trying to get a job with the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers for years, and I have scored high on the test but, there are just too many applicants and not enough jobs) due to the economy. So if there are any guitar builders out there, that pay a living wage ( I would say that is at least $11-12/hour and at least a 40 hour work week) let me know, and if not, why not? Also, is there a union in this industry? Thanks.

For now, I'm trying to break into the boutique pedal market on-line... but thats a tough one too, lots of competition. And every company expects you to buy $1000.00-3000.00 worth of merch up front (hard to carry 50-100 pedal companies without having hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to do business with them... it's like they want to keep anyone but the upper class out of their market, it's pretty frustrating, but luckily there are some good companies out there, that have been willing to work with me, but I'm finding their few and far between. Let me know what you guys think.

-Peace

[Peter Naglitsch]

Why not pay more? Because they don't have to! Its that simple. They can get someone straight off the streets and do the same work as you will do. As you will do? Yes as you will do! That is the simple truth. If you got a job at any high volume guitar brands they will let you start (if you are lucky) in the sanding department. At the night shift. If you thought that if you had a Roberto Venn degree you should get to start in the custom workshop right away you have been deeply and utterly fooled. I'm sorry. You will have to start at the bottom and proove yourself. As with everything in life. There are no shortcuts. Or free lunches.

I quote the RV website "we are confident that graduates of the school have the basic skills necessary for seeking entry level positions". Entry level jobs doesn't pay more that 8$ an hour...

[EffectsGuru]

Glad to get a response so quickly... I hear what you have to say, but... to say that they will get someone off the streets to do the same work... sure, but not as efficient, and they would have a huge learning curve. Also, I never stated that I thought they should be working in a custom shop, nor did I say that I wanted a shortcut, going to school whether it be a technical school, or a University, is NOT a short cut, it takes a hard work and commitment... I think thats worth something.

[voodoochild]

I think the same concept applies to college. If you don't have the experience or background, no one wants to pay you. It also tests you to see if you are really passionate about what you do. I graduated Roberto Venn in '95 and didn't start making a living for at least 5 years. It took lots of hard work and sacrifice to get there but in the end it was worth it. Now the Roberto-Venn certificate goes a long way. Not only do I have the experience, but I also have the credentials. You have to start from the bottom and work your way up.

[daz]

I don't want to kick you when you're down. But to be honest i'd never have gone to school to learn luthiery with expectations of working for someone. I think most do it in order to learn for the purpose of building thier own business and line of instruments. This is not the kind of skill that there is a great calling for. As others said, it's a case of hiring people cheap and teaching them one part of the assembly line process. Most guitars are pretty much build with automation to a degree leaving mostly basic skills that most can be taught easily like sanding and such. the real luthiery takes place in the small shops of boutique builders and custom shops of the larger ones, and those positions are generally filled from within the company or family etc. It's just not the kind of skill where you learn it and go out and immediatly make a decent living. There are probably 1,000,000 tech jobs where you CAN graduate and begin making a living wage for every 1 job in your chosen industry. So like i said, either spend years moving up thru the ranks till you build a rep, or do what i think most who go to luthiery school do and try and start your own company. Either way there is fierce competition for any well paying way of making a living doing this because it is the type of work people do because they love it. It's just like music itself really.....millions learn to play and spend years doing so, but only a tiny fraction make a living at it.

[hasserl]

What a whiner. If you don't like the wages someone else is paying then be a man about it and start your own company. See what it's like dealing with all the taxes, fees and regulations. You invest your own money, you take the risk, you make the thousands of business decisions that either pan out or not. Then you can pay anyone you hire a "living wage".

[defaced]

University, is NOT a short cut, it takes a hard work and commitment... I think thats worth something

It's worth something, but sometimes not alot.

Before I started college, I was dating a girl who was in the process of getting her BFA. As she was sculpting a cat she thought to herself "how is this going to help me get a job". After some research, she found out that 1% of that school's BFA students get jobs in their field. After that year she transfered to a graphic design school that had 100% job placement in the graph design field.

I was a year behind her and had dreams of being a welding engineer, never thought about getting a job, just knew I wanted to be a WE. So I did some research and found out that the pay was good, jobs were in demand, and generally speaking there were more jobs than graduates. Now I'm a WE.

The long and short of it is that you can't expect anything, you have to research and take care of yourself. Had you known what you know now, would you still have gone to luithery school? A couple of weekends of research could have told you what you're finding out by experience. I hate to quote a horror movie, but they guy from Saw is right, "the thing about learning from experience is first comes the test, then comes the lesson."

You can still go into the trades and make good money. Currenlty we (the welding industry) is seeing a huge shortage of workers, to the tune of about 200k - you can research this, Google "aws labor shortage". Why? Retirement and young guys wanting to play with computers instead of burning rod. I worked as a TIG welder during one summer, with only having had high school welding classes, making 11 bucks an hour in a job shop. I hear machinists and plumbers are in a similar boat.

And no offence, but I wish my education only cost me 10K, but that's a whole different topic in itself.

[Peter Naglitsch]

Pls don’t get me wrong here. I’m not out to get you personally. But:

to say that they will get someone off the streets to do the same work... sure, but not as efficient, and they would have a huge learning curve.

Is that *really* so

Hey, “sand that area until it is flat and scratch free” takes me under five seconds to say and a day to learn someone coming right off the street (and yeah I do 100% believe that I can teach a person to reach production level quality in a day). That means it will cost me a day of my time and I can then hire someone that is OK with 8$ an hour. OR. I can hire you that knows exactly what to do and I don’t have to spend a day to learn how to sand, thus saving a day for me but it will cost me 12$ an hour -> 32$ more per day ->160$ more per week->8000$ per year. Now let’s say that this person of the street stays with me for a full year. Then the day I spent training this person gained me 8000$. I wish I had a more days that were as productive as that.

Also, I never stated that I thought they should be working in a custom shop, nor did I say that I wanted a shortcut, going to school whether it be a technical school, or a University, is NOT a short cut, it takes a hard work and commitment... I think thats worth something.

No you didn’t and yes it is. But it is obviously not worth 4$ an hour extra in the eyes of guitar producers. You said it yourself. Now once again don’t get me wrong but in my strong opinion you have been fooled/fooled yourself if you think that you can learn a trade like building guitars in a five month course at RV. You are still (in my point of view) a beginner. Hey, I have been building guitars for 15 years, the last five years as a semi pro and I still have a lot to learn (and still have my day job). So while you are still a beginner you get beginners vague. Simple as that

I think it is a case of you having to high expectations of what effects the RV course would have on your career. Once again have a look at the quote from the RV website. They prepare you for entry level jobs. And that is prep-sanding bodies for 8$ an hour.

[stingray_65]

I GOT to chime in on this

Way back in the day I attended a specialty school. albeit it was for high performance engine building. Living in Houston Tx wasn't cheap and I worked for those non living wages for a couple years trying to make a living doing something I loved to do. Heck I had the skills to build top fuel motors and was busting my knuckles rebuilding driveshafts for trucks LOL.

Well I made it back to Toledo Oh and got a job that wasn't building engines and racecars. But I took that education with me and it hasn't left. It was MOST importantly an investment in myself. I spun my education off into something that has supported me, my family, and my hobbies through the years.

I don't regret it at all, I had a grand adventure getting my education. I've built a few very slick cars on my own just tinkering and have worked on quite a few other peoples cars (didn't get paid much more than beer money) but I liked doing it.

Who knows, there's probably a bigger market for high end furniture than for high end guitars, and the mark up is probably better too.

You got the education, it's yours now, no one can take it from you. It's up to you to use it any way you can.

Even in this tough economy, you can show on your resume that you can take an intrest in yourself, set a goal and acomplish it. Thats something to say that a lot of people can't do for themselves.

Your a muscian and a luthier... think out side the box... that shouldn't be difficult for you.

Have some faith in yourself and aply your passion to a job that will pay the bills and get you a place with a garage and a work bench. If you went to that school to make a bunch of money, you messed up, should have gotten a buisness degree or become a lawyer. BUT if you went because you want to build guitars, build guitars and be happy!

Just my .02 from my personal experience
Best of luck

Ray

[EffectsGuru]

For future reference the only work I have ever tried to get in this business ( and htis goes for 99% of roberto venn graduates) is with smaller companies where you do REAL luthiery, not Fender, Givson, Etc. There stuff is predominately automated. So, I in no way was reffering to large companies, i wouldn't expect a living wage from a massive corperation.. but from the creative minds of small builders across the country... you can do better... ($8.00/hour , to live in California? Really? How?).

[EffectsGuru]

College, in my opinion is a bit different, at Roberto-Venn, we were MAKING guitars, not just learning about making them, so yes, you should be prepaired for entry level, what I didn't know when I got into it (and boy was it a big mistake not to first check) is that the overwhelming majority of companies are expecting you to move across state, get a job that won't pay for all your expenses...and expect you to some how make it,(most of the people that do do it successfully perhaps have some cash stored or family help to get by on?) and I think thats wrong, I think thats wrong even if you don't go to school, but I guess, it's almost getting political, going into concepts like wage slavery, so I won't take it any further.

[EffectsGuru]

Speaking out about something that you feel if wrong isn't whining, and a forum would be a good place to do it, if it bothers you than perhaps you shouldn't read it.... and start my own company... thats what I did!

[EffectsGuru]

Yeah if my business doesn't pick up, and if I don't get some more companies on board, than I will definitely have to get some work, along with my effectsguru.com site, and I wouldn't look past welding, thanks for letting me know, I'm going in next monday to the IBEW (electrical union with living wages, hell yeah!), the economy being rough can make it hard, as there is a TON of competition making it hard to get the job, but if the economy picks up in 6 months ( I doubt it will) than I will have a much better chance at getting a job there. But no matter what I will continue to work on being a part of this industry whether I am building repairing or selling, rock and roll devices.

[EffectsGuru]

Much appreciated... thats pretty much my plan at this point. Effectsguru.com, along with a part/full time job to pay the bills while it gets search engine optimized and grows... and get a garage with a bench, where I can do the repair work that I can handle, and build guitars, amps and pedals. Check out the sight an tell me what you think...(there is a link below) I can certainly say that I plan to carry a lot more products than what is on there, but it's not easy convincing companies to drop ship for me, and in order for me to carry the amount of products that I would like to carry, having a good majority of those companies drop ship to cut down on my cost is a crucial part of my business plan, and so far I'm doing alright (just started in January).

[voodoochild]

I think the best attitude would be that you took the opportunity to learn a trade with an accredited school which opened up a world of knowledge to be gained. Letting employers know that you want to learn is the first key to getting in. They can shape you. Then you make more money when you become valuable to them. Graduating from any school and hitting the job market like you are better than the next person because you have a degree will get you nowhere fast. I'm not trying to bash you here, just trying to give advice. I was once their too. I wouldn't trade the education I got from Roberto-Venn any day. It gave me the jump start I needed.