Cryogenically treated vacuum tubes...?

[dai h.]

fwiw there was a guy, maybe a grad student or something--basically someone who I took to be in the position and have the technical knowledge to do this sort of experimenting--who did do some experimenting who posted about his experiments and findings on one of the plexi palace boards some time ago, and IIRC the gist of his findings was that this was bogus. (I suppose I should've saved that thread but apparently it isn't on my hard drive. The thread may still be there or might have been eliminated when they changed servers.)

I'd like to know if any of the cost no object tubes (such as the "Red Bank" tubes) or any of the "serious" big expensive tubes (transmitting, etc.) did this when the technology was avail. Maybe that (answer) would say something as to whether there is any point to cryo tubes.

also, how could you even tell if some tube you bought was processed? Kind of an open easy con if someone wanted to.

perhaps, though (even if it turns out pointless with tubes) there is some other useful musical instrument-related application to strengthen metal parts or something. Deal with metal fatigue or whatever.

[Chuck H]

They already do it with guitar strings. Which do benefit from it because they are made from martenistic steel and are intended to bend, rub and vibrate alot. I mentioned "chopping" and "pounding" before. Thats not unlike what I do to my strings.

Chuck

[defaced]

The Dean Markley Blue Steel strings are cryogenically treated. I used to play them and don't recall anything significantly different about their performance against normal strings, but this was several years ago and it wasn't something I was testing for.

also, how could you even tell if some tube you bought was processed? Kind of an open easy con if someone wanted to.

I can't think of anything that would differ that would make it easy for someone to tell if tubes were treated or not.

[tubeswell]

perhaps, though (even if it turns out pointless with tubes) there is some other useful musical instrument-related application to strengthen metal parts or something. Deal with metal fatigue or whatever.

One of my younger brothers was doing his PhD in quantum physics in the '90s and was working on developing the process of hardening the surface of metals in a small vacuum plasma chamber. He had sponsorship for a while from the small-bearing industry. Unfortunately his supervisor left the university before my brother finished his thesis work, and as he couldn't find a suitable replacement (here in little ole NZ) in time to satisfy his sponsors that he was making reasonable progress, and as he head two young children and needed to earn money, he abandoned is studies after 3 years (and he now continues to have enormous student debt because of that). However he did have some success with getting a couple of prototype plasma chambers (that he built) to work on hardening the surface of small metal objects. Apparently when you place a small metal object between two really high voltage (talking thousands of volts) electrodes in a vacuum chamber (so that the object gets immersed in the plasma field), it 'aligns' (for want of a more precise term) the atoms in the surface layer(s) of the metal, making the metal a lot harder. I don't know whether this would quickly become 'undone' if you then exposed that object to continued heating and cooling (like in a tube), or whether it serves any useful purpose at all in the tube manufacturing industry. I recall my brother telling me it was a frustratingly difficult process to replicate accurately, and it required enormous amounts of energy and elaborate cooling mechanisms and so on, so I can understand why it got prohibitive for him to continue to develop the work without sponsorship.

[Chuck H]

Thats really cool (er, ah...Hot)

It could turn out to be a good process for any small part that could benefit from a thin surface hardness that still needs to remain sprung or flexible. I'm thinking guitar frets first. Imagine getting more the life from your frets. They do frets in 420 stainless now that last about four times as long as standard frets. With an extra surface hardening the fret could remain springy and flexible (so it doesn't "pop") but you may even double the wear time. Your frets could last eight times longer. I'd still be playing a couple of my old guitars now as I sometimes sold them when the frets wore out instead of getting them refretted.

Chuck

[dai h.]

They already do it with guitar strings. Which do benefit from it because they are made from martenistic steel and are intended to bend, rub and vibrate alot. I mentioned "chopping" and "pounding" before. Thats not unlike what I do to my strings.

Chuck

The Dean Markley Blue Steel strings are cryogenically treated. I used to play them and don't recall anything significantly different about their performance against normal strings, but this was several years ago and it wasn't something I was testing for.

I can't think of anything that would differ that would make it easy for someone to tell if tubes were treated or not.

ah, that's right those Dean Markley "Blue Steel" strings. Will Lee(?) was some of the ads if memory cells are working.

I've seen some stuff here such as "Cryogenically treated fuses" and it's disappointing (while at the same time being quite funny). Pseudoscientific territory.

[Aloha_Mark]

For those who wonder how a cryogenic chamber can influence the metal inside a tube, the answer is through the pins, and not the vacuum. Whether this can do enough to make the device less noisy, or make it behave more like an ideal tube (in terms of transfer characteristics), that is unknown to me. It would take thousands of dollars of test equipment to measure the before and after specs on a tube. However, the one benefit of Cryotek's 24 hr treatment process is that it gets rid of junk tubes that die early. On ebay the upcharge over the price of a normal Ruby 12AX7 is around 80%. Not having to contend with premature failure might be worth it to a touring band.

[tubeswell]

And so it begins again...

[walkman]

Hmm I wonder if I empty the fridge out and put my amp in that it will cool the tubes and serve as an ISO box at the same time ! I guess my wife won't be impressed .doh!

[Aloha_Mark]

A four year old thread is brought out of the deep freeze. Lol. This is the advertising blurb from Cryoset, and used on Ebay:

"Cryoset Deep Cryogenic Treatment:

The process makes a permanent change and the benefits do not deteriorate over time or upon return to operating temperature, it changes the whole way the vacuum tube performs. The major benefit has been a dramatic improvement in dynamic range,micro detail with an increase in speed. Bass response has been clearer with a reduction in micro phonics. The proprietary Cryoset treatment process utilizes a computer controlled, cryogenic chamber to very gradually reduce the temperature of the tubes to 300 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit) and holding them there for a minimum of 24 hours. After the extended dwell at this cryogenic temperature, the vacuum tubes are then very slowly brought up to ambient temperature over the next 24 hours and stabilized. The process is a "dry" one that utilizes liquid nitrogen as a cryogen that is flashed into the chamber. The tubes are never exposed to the actual liquid. All these processes are microprocessor controlled under strict and verifiable conditions.

Scientists have known for years that material transformations occur when they are exposed to cryogenic temperatures. Many of the early discoveries were more fully explored by NASA engineers who were trying to understand what would happen to metals when subjected to the extreme temperatures of space. Today, a wide range of commercial items from softball bats to race engines are cryogenically treated to improve their performance by enhancing the material properties with "cold treating" or cryogenic processing. This technology brings practical application to audio and other electrical components as well. Cryogenic treatment modifies the microstructure of the metals used in critical electronic components by reducing or eliminating voids and imperfections in the material. Crystal structures (or grains) has been shown to be modified after cryogenic treatment, creating a more uniform or homogenous microstructure. The thermal dissipation properties of the metals are improved, reducing hot spots and further contributing to extended life and improved performance. In addition, the physical contraction of the metals while under the deep freeze imparts a mechanical compression on the metals that contributes to improved signal transmission quality and speed. The materials used in electronics are highly fabricated and the manufacturing processes used impart or induce stresses in them.

In addition, welding and soldering adds additional stress from concentrated areas of heating. Most everyone recognizes that welded components often fail at the weld -- a "weak" spot. The weakness comes from residual stresses inherent in all materials, further exacerbated by manufacturing techniques or processes. Cryogenic treatment relieves stresses and normalizes (or stabilizes) welded and soldered areas. This mechanism is founded in the observation first made by Bose and later by Einstein, that matter is at it most relaxed state when it has the least amount of kinetic energy (or molecular activity). Absolute zero (-459 Fahrenheit) is that point where no more energy can be extracted, or when a material is at its most "relaxed" state.

While our Cryoset (R) thermal treatment does not get to absolute zero, you can understand how going to minus 300 degrees Fahrenheit for an extended dwell time enables the material to become more relaxed and stress relieved. The transformations as a result of cryogenic treatment is permanent, and does not change with time."

This is not an endorsement by any means, but even Seymour Duncan has resorted to cryogenics, with the Zephyr pickups.

[Chuck H]

Sorry, but that pitch only looks impressive to some one that doesn't know much about the materials and processes. I'm not hatin' on anyone. Just keeping it real.

The process makes a permanent change and the benefits do not deteriorate over time or upon return to operating temperature, it changes the whole way the vacuum tube performs. The major benefit has been a dramatic improvement in dynamic range,micro detail with an increase in speed. Bass response has been clearer with a reduction in micro phonics.

That is a bold statement. It's also a lie that they wouldn't have printed if it weren't hard for most people to disprove.

Today, a wide range of commercial items from softball bats to race engines are cryogenically treated to improve their performance by enhancing the material properties with "cold treating" or cryogenic processing.

The above stated items are made of metals that can be hardened by thermal treatment. With the exception of the filament, vacuum tubes are not made of such metals. Further, those items benefit physically from the treatment. Electronic benefits have never been tested or proven and I, for one, seriously doubt any electronic benefit to even austenitic metals from cryo treatment. If cryo improved electronic components some one would have figures to prove it and there would be a legitimate market. The tube electronic owning demographic is, for the most part, an easy target for this sort of snake oil. And that's precisely why no one is selling cryo treated transistors.

This technology brings practical application to audio and other electrical components as well.

Another lie with no substance offered.

Cryogenic treatment modifies the microstructure of the metals used in critical electronic components by reducing or eliminating voids and imperfections in the material.

Not exactly. This a misleading statement that isn't technically wrong. More important is that none of it applies to the metals used to make tubes.

Crystal structures (or grains) has been shown to be modified after cryogenic treatment, creating a more uniform or homogenous microstructure.

More accurate. And it doesn't apply to the metals used to make tubes.

Cryogenic treatment relieves stresses and normalizes (or stabilizes) welded and soldered areas.

Well, I've never had a tube pop a weld before. Their just throwing every possible pitch they can at this. Which should be a red flag for any thinking person that their hucksters. AND... It doesn't apply to the metals used to make tubes.

While our Cryoset (R) thermal treatment does not get to absolute zero, you can understand how going to minus 300 degrees Fahrenheit for an extended dwell time enables the material to become more relaxed and stress relieved.

Absolutely true. But the changes aren't permanent in metals that are not austenitic and/or martensitic. Implying that this applies to tubes is another lie.

The transformations as a result of cryogenic treatment is permanent, and does not change with time.

Also true. But it doesn't apply to the metals used to make tubes.

Until some one tests a tube, then cryo treats it and retests it with improved performance I intent to continue calling shenanigans on cryo treated tube vendors.

[Steve Conner]

Well, I can imagine that the thermal expansion might cause the innards of the tube to shift slightly. The grid-cathode structure of a tube is a precision mechanical part, even one thousandth of an inch of displacement can make a measurable difference to the gain and linearity.

I wouldn't be so bold as to claim that the change was always an improvement though. Maybe if the cryo treater culled out the tubes that were killed or degraded by the treatment, it might give the impression of an improvement. Like the old myth of Soviet criminals being "hardened by the Gulag" even though the actual effect was to kill the weak ones and weaken the strong ones.

[Chuck H]

Good point. It would be fairly easy to test a bunch of tubes, then cryo treat them and test again. Then ONLY report on the examples that showed improvement and omit disclosure on failures and losses. The results would look legitimate and very convincing. I think it speaks to the MO of the current cryo tube vendors that they haven't done it. It's unnecessary work for the returns they seek. Another red flag for the thinkers. If I were a dishonest man I might do it to get a leg up and sell a bunch of tubes. Actual published "proof" would make the Hi Fi ilk so happy they would need a hanky.

[dai h.]

This is not an endorsement by any means, but even Seymour Duncan has resorted to cryogenics, with the Zephyr pickups

or, even SD has to succumb to the vagaries of the market and offer that "special product" for people with more money than sense (maybe cynical but that's my opinion). I mean, if you're going to make a "special", "exotic", "exclusive" (or, whatever) PU, why choose those specific features (which are seen on other "special" products)? (Namely the use of precious metals and cryogenic treatment.) I suppose it wouldn't sell as well with real but more complicated to understand technical features.

as far as tubes, my (non-expert) understanding is that the design needs to be good, materials need to be good (and consistent), dimensions need to be precise, labor needs to be skilled (esp. when lots of hand assembly is involved), quality control needs to actually exist.

Sometimes when considering topics like this, I like to look at the issue in light of history to see if some assertion has already been invalidated by historical reality. Ideas such as distortion necessarily being an absolute bad thing. Or some component that shouldn't be used (being used in gear on a hit song or well-received gear). Or how did Jimi make decent music without "Audio Grade" capacitors or cryogenically treated earmuffs? (More seriously) there seem to be a lot of subjectivity and "it depends" type situations.

[Chuck H]

It's an industry standard to market any popular catch item, hype, catch phrase, etc. There's no shame in it!!! Musicians have been doing it for as long as history remembers. Even classical music was somewhat stringently contrived by popular formulas. And there's a lot of BAD classical music that enjoys air today on no other merit than it's age. As if old=good!?! But some composers that were actually banned for being "unconventional" have proved quite worthy and listenable today. I'm not claiming to know everything about what cryogenics might offer tubes, but I am claiming that the vendors don't either and that so far nothing valid has been marketed.

As to special metals used in electronics my only experience has been with my own guitar. A 1985 Yamaha SBG1300ts with original Spinex pickups. Supposedly the pole pieces and maybe some other parts are made of the same Spinex steel used to make acupuncture needles!?! I can't say that it does or doesn't make a difference in tone. They are somewhat renowned pickups and there was an obvious agenda in using a special metal for their construction. Though I think it was strictly marketing and not actually beneficial.