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Tim Shaw PAF reissue interview

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  • Tim Shaw PAF reissue interview

    I have an '81 Tim Shaw humbucker home I'm rewinding for a friend of mine (after discovering I had an '83 Shaw in my parts box that I promptly sold to him), and I decided to look up some info on these pickups.

    I found this on Gibson's site.

    It's an interesting read. He seems to have gone through some lengths to research the original PAF's, and had to work within the current limitations at the time.

    Whether it was rivalry between plants or increased market awareness, the Nashville plant jumped into the reissue action in 1980. By this time, one of the most glaring deficiencies of new Les Pauls (compared to the originals) was the humbucking pickup. In preparation for its first attempt at a reissue, Gibson assigned engineer Tim Shaw the job of designing a reissue of the original Patent-Applied-For humbucking pickup-within certain restrictions. "This was 1980 and Norlin was already feeling the pinch," Shaw said, referring to Gibson's long decline through the 1970s and early '80s. "We weren't allowed to do much retooling. We redid the bobbin because it was worn out. We got some old bobbins and put the square hole back in. We did it without the T-hole, which stood for Treble."

    To replicate the magnets, Shaw gathered up magnets from original PAFs and sent them to a lab to be analyzed. "Most were Alnico 2's," he said, "but some were 5's. In the process of making an Alnico 5, they stick a magnet in a huge coil for orientation, but an unoriented 5 sounds a lot like a 2. They started with Alnico 2 and then switched to Alnico 5."

    Shaw discovered that the original magnets were a little thicker than 1980 production magnets. "Magnetic strength is largely a function of the area of the polarized face; increasing the face size gives you more power," he explained. So he specified the thicker magnet for the new PAF.

    Wiring on the originals was #42 gauge, which Gibson still used. However, the original wire had an enamel coating and the current wire had a polyurethane coat, which also was of a different thickness or "buildup" than that of the original, which affected capacitance. Norlin refused to go the extra mile-or extra buck, as it were. Enamel-coated wire cost a dollar more per pound than poly-coated. Shaw could change the spec on the buildup without additional expense, so the thickness of the coating was the same as on the original wire, but he was forced to use the poly coat. The difference is easy to see: purple wire on the originals, orange on the reissues.

    Shaw later found a spec for the number of turns on a spec sheet for a 1957 ES-175. "It specified 5,000 turns because a P-90 had 10,000 turns and they cut it in half," Shaw said. In reality, however, originals had anywhere from 5,000 to 6,000 turns, depending on how tight the coil was wound. Shaw later met Seth Lover, who designed and patented Gibson's humbucker, at a NAMM show. Lover laughed when asked about a spec for windings, and he told Shaw, "We wound them until they were full."

    The spec for resistance was even less exact, Shaw said. The old ohmeter was graduated in increments of .5 (500 ohms). Anywhere between 3.5 and 4 on the meter (3,500 to 4,000 ohms) met the spec. Consequently, Shaw pointed out, there is no such thing as an exact reissue or replica of the 1959 PAF pickup. There can only be a replica of one original PAF, or an average PAF. As Gibson would find out in the early 1990s, the same could be said about the entire guitar.

    Shaw's PAF reissue debuted on Gibson's new Nashville-made Les Paul Heritage 80 in 1980. Compared to anything Gibson had previously made (which is to say, compared to nothing), it was an excellent reissue of a sunburst Les Paul Standard. It had a nice top, thin binding in the cutaway, nickel-plated parts, more accurate sunburst finish and smaller headstock, but the body shape, body size and three-piece neck, among other details, were just regular production. It appears that Gibson still didn't understand the demand for an accurate reissue, because Gibson accompanied the Heritage 80 with fancier versions: the Heritage 80 Elite, with an ebony fingerboard that had no relevance to the reissue market (although it did have a one-piece neck) and the Heritage 80 Award, with gold plated hardware that also had no relevance to the reissue market.
    I found it amusing that the patent number stamped on the bottom of these pickups is still not the humbucker patent, but is instead Les Paul's patent for the trapeze tailpiece/bridge!
    It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


    http://coneyislandguitars.com
    www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

  • #2
    See I knew it was something with the magnet

    Although not the whole story a big part.

    Possum you were very right. As far as I know Tim was and may still be the top dog on PAF re-creations and he would know as well as anyone what made them tick.

    Oh well, back to the old drawing board to find the magical wind that will compensate for the magnet face height or lack there-of on the new mags out there today.

    Hey, maybe we can all get together and talk with 1 magnet maker and get the specs of the originals made, could be a good thing for us and them.

    Comment


    • #3
      Oh yeah

      Thanks for that enlightening article David, mucho appreciated.

      Comment


      • #4
        Shaw

        yeah thats a good one to read, I have one shaw pickup a neck one, neck spacing so they used shorter magnet in it. They did the magnets right in those things, pretty sure they are A2. Not having examined any magnet wire from a real PAF I can only guess if they got it right, but suspect that magnet wire in those years varied alot too. The wire he used measures .00275, usual is about .0027 so you can see where they added insulation thickness. Or maybe its bull too, hard to get consistent measure in magnet wire from batch to batch sometimes. The unoriented A5 magnet thing is quizzical, I've ony asked one magnet supplier about this and they said they couldn't/wouldn't make any like that, not to mention rough cast magnets either. I'm still unconvinced that the magnets are the "magical" ingredient, still think its a synergy of parts, alloys, magnet wire and wind etc. etc. blah blah.

        I heard a Herbie Hancock tune think it was called "Push Push" with some guy on guitar doing classic Duane Allman PAF tones, if anyone knows what album thats from let me know, whatever it was its what I call good tone!
        http://www.SDpickups.com
        Stephens Design Pickups

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Possum View Post
          yeah thats a good one to read, I have one shaw pickup a neck one, neck spacing so they used shorter magnet in it.
          Did they make neck and bridge spacing? The one I had was from my '83 Les Paul Standard, which I no longer have. I didn't notice a difference on that guitar... but that's not to say they didn't do it on others.

          My buddy has like 7 Les Pauls, including one with an Explorer headstock! At least one of them had the pickups replaced, so he's trying to restore them to period specs.

          So he had one Shaw that's dead, and I'm going to rewind it.

          From what I remember, they are pretty nice sounding pickups.
          It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


          http://coneyislandguitars.com
          www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

          Comment


          • #6
            Yay

            Originally posted by David Schwab View Post
            Did they make neck and bridge spacing? The one I had was from my '83 Les Paul Standard, which I no longer have. I didn't notice a difference on that guitar... but that's not to say they didn't do it on others.

            My buddy has like 7 Les Pauls, including one with an Explorer headstock! At least one of them had the pickups replaced, so he's trying to restore them to period specs.

            So he had one Shaw that's dead, and I'm going to rewind it.

            From what I remember, they are pretty nice sounding pickups.
            Take lots of notes Bro.........

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by madialex View Post
              Take lots of notes Bro.........
              I'll even take pictures...

              I just sold him one... I took DC resistance readings off it... but just to verify it worked... I didn't write them down.

              I'm wondering how the different build wire I'm using will sound....
              Attached Files
              It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


              http://coneyislandguitars.com
              www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

              Comment


              • #8
                notes

                yeah measure the wire O.D., its poly wire, and count turns per layer to try to replicate the original wind...
                http://www.SDpickups.com
                Stephens Design Pickups

                Comment


                • #9
                  I would be curious to know the number of turns per layer for the Shaw. You can be sure it was done on a winder that did the same number of turns per layer for the whole bobbin.
                  They don't make them like they used to... We do.
                  www.throbak.com
                  Vintage PAF Pickups Website

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    turns

                    odds are if the Shaw pickup is busted its just a problem with the leads coming off the coil, I bet he's already destroyed the original coil before reading any of this:-) Hope not...
                    http://www.SDpickups.com
                    Stephens Design Pickups

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Awww,Dude thats bad asss!!! Schwab!!! Nothing like a room full of Pauls!!! Just thinkn back, you got a photo memory, you know the DCR!!! Thanks for sharin'.........

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JGundry View Post
                        I would be curious to know the number of turns per layer for the Shaw. You can be sure it was done on a winder that did the same number of turns per layer for the whole bobbin.
                        I wasn't going to do all that... but I will diligently unwind the coil and write it down, and post my info here. My friend was more interested in having a working pickup than to recreate it exactly... but that's what I should do of course.

                        Originally posted by Possum View Post
                        odds are if the Shaw pickup is busted its just a problem with the leads coming off the coil, I bet he's already destroyed the original coil before reading any of this:-) Hope not...
                        No, I haven't touched it yet! I also thought it was the lead wires. My friend did check those out, as you can see in the photo... they are all sticking out. With the holidays here and all, I haven't had a chance to sit down with it. I want to take my time disassembling it. The first thing I'm going to check is the leads.

                        Originally posted by NightWinder View Post
                        Awww,Dude thats bad asss!!! Schwab!!! Nothing like a room full of Pauls!!! Just thinkn back, you got a photo memory, you know the DCR!!! Thanks for sharin'.........
                        I wish they were my guitars! I would be happy with the Black Beauty in the back. I don't remember what the DCR was... but I do remember it was in the typical range for a PAF style humbucker. I'll get the pickup back and take a new reading. I think it was 7.68 or something...

                        Those are all my friend's guitars. Incidentally, the silver Jackson looking guitar, as well as the Rickenbacker styled guitar to the right of it were both built by my friend John... who is the "G" in "SGD Lutherie." That makes me the "S" ...

                        I can see the third from the left Paul has a Duncan in it, so that's likely what he's replacing with the one I'm rewinding. He just wants to get them all stock again.

                        That explorer head Paul is just weird!
                        It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


                        http://coneyislandguitars.com
                        www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Cool David. Also see of the slugs are in contact with the base plate.
                          They don't make them like they used to... We do.
                          www.throbak.com
                          Vintage PAF Pickups Website

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Call me a Philistine , but I just can't feel all warm inside about a Tim Shaw PAF. It's so inaccurate. Just look at the photo and that's before you get to the wire etc... The Les Pauls though, yup I can get misty eyed over those; especially the Black Beauty. Still miss my old '74. I parted with that because I couldn't face the price of a refin back in the mid 80's.
                            sigpic Dyed in the wool

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Shaw

                              I've only heard one set of Shaw pickups in an 80s SG and have to admit they sounded pretty darn good. I haven't put the one I have in anything before so not real sure what it sounds like. No the slugs don't touch the base plate, there is a tiny gap there, but the slugs aren't flush with the top of the bobbin either. Shaws aren't authentic PAF tone they are just Shaws, some like them some don't.
                              http://www.SDpickups.com
                              Stephens Design Pickups

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